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It's Watch!... Neighborhood Watch. Not shoot.

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!, Mar 8, 2012.

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  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Nobody ever said anything about "discouraging neighborhood watch programs." The only reason to throw that in is to avoid the discussion about how gun culture in this country has indeed made us LESS safe -- we have way too much gun violence and your way actually doesn't seem to work. And "weakening self defense laws" is not an issue, because we have made those laws ridiculously expansive. The end result again: since the stand your ground law went into effect in Florida the number of "self defense" murders has tripled. So yeah, factually, I would suggest that we would be A LOT safer if we "weakened self defense laws." My guess is the morgue would do a lot less business in places like Florida. I won't resort to hyperbole, though, to try make that suggestion. It's my notion of common sense. Your way -- any moron able to carry a gun, and laws that allow them to use and get off relatively easily -- doesn't seem to be making our country safer. The body count suggests otherwise.
     
  2. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member


    It's not just Florida law. It's basically American foreign policy. And yeah, most of the world thinks it's stupid and immoral.

    We gotta stand our ground because we feel threatened because a bunch of people 8,000 miles away aren't acting like we want them to.
     
  3. Inky_Wretch

    Inky_Wretch Well-Known Member

    The uneven application of self-defense is also a problem.

    A Florida woman fired a warning shot into the ground as her abusive spouse said he was going to kill her. Zimmerman killed Martin. One got 20 years. One was acquitted.
     
  4. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    She'd rejected plea bargains that could have given her a shorter sentence, and the 20 years was the mandatory minimum.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/marissa-alexander-gets-20_n_1530035.html
     
  5. Donny in his element

    Donny in his element Well-Known Member

    Great series of posts, Ragu. Agree almost word for word.

    Stand Your Ground is a terrible law that has led to too much unnecessary carnage in the state by people looking for an excuse to shoot. Look no further than the JAX case of the drunk guy shooting into an SUV full of black teens who didn't turn their music down in a gas station parking lot. One died.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/jordan-davis-stand-your-grounds-latest-victim-20130425

    And the law is not about protecting yourself during home invasions,etc. that was already an available defense. This law made almost any confrontation, no matter who instigated, a self defense claim. Problem is, only one side lives to tell their story.

    Other thoughts:

    Without getting political, Angela Corey is terrible. Need further proof? Look into her overcharging of 12-year-old Cristian Fernandez for capital murder.

    http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-02-08/story/cristian-fernandez-pleads-guilty-manslaughter-gets-juvenile-sanctions
     
  6. dirtybird

    dirtybird Well-Known Member

    I assume she didn't take the plea deal because the stand your ground law has been applied so broadly most lawyers would imagine they had a good case. The law has been used to get people off in shootouts over drug deals, would you forfeit three years of your life on the chance it would turn against you in that situation?

    More importantly, the stand your ground law in Florida is so problematic because you don't have to run. If a judge says she could have run, but from what it sounds like, in most cases that doesn't really factor in. And to think, she, if what's reported is true, tried to use a firearm as a deterrent for violence, and that puts her in jail.
     
  7. dirtybird

    dirtybird Well-Known Member

    If all those things served to deter rather than embolden violence, you'd be right. But when being part of a neighborhood encourages vigilantism rather than working in concert with law enforcement, when guns serve to embolden people rather than deter them and when self-defense laws are so broad someone can start something and then get off for finishing, it well those are issues.

    Maybe we are safer when people in the most flustered, scared moments of their lives (when someone is attacking them and they fear for their safety) are given deadly tools and have their confidence bolstered to use them. Or maybe terrified (or angry) people tend to make rash decisions.
     
  8. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    Where is the evidence for this?

    Zimmerman did work "in concert" with law enforcement. The night of the killing, he called the cops. If he was a vigilante, looking to kill someone, would he have called the cops first? That makes no sense.

    Meanwhile, in Chicago, a 19-year-old woman, a 17-year-old boy, a 15-year-old boy, and a 14-year old boy were among (at least) 8 shooting victims overnight.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-shootings-violence-20130714,0,4764624.story

    Based on where these shootings took place, it's a pretty good bet that the shooters, and the victims, were minorities in each case.

    But, since we can't blame self defense laws, the lack of tough anti-gun laws, or an overzealous "white Hispanic" neighborhood watch captain, nobody will give a shit.
     
  9. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    The point that people don't care enough about other killings does nothing to invalidate their arguments in these killings. It's just bad logic.
     
  10. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    Read more: George Zimmerman Trayvon Martin Verdict - What George Zimmerman Can Do Now - Esquire
    Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
    Visit us at Esquire.com
     
  11. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    Their arguments in what killings? The rash of killings involving overzealous "vigilante" neighborhood watch captains gunning down unarmed African-American children?

    Are their other examples of this?

    I don't mean to minimize even one killing. For the family involved, it's the ultimate tragedy and hear break. But, is there really some greater, unresolved problem that needs to be fixed?

    If we are interested in reducing the number of young black children being gunned down, what percentage of your resources would you put into reducing the number of overzealous neighborhood watch captains?
     
  12. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    Since at least 1993, every shooting by the FBI has been deemed justifiable:

    But, a neighborhood watch captain, who is getting his ass kicked, uses deadly force to defend himself, and this is the one shooting everyone is worked up about.
     
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