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Jimmy Rollins: HOF?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Dick Whitman, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    I don't think so, either. Hawk Harrelson started touting him for it last night during the broadcast. My immediate thought was, "Get the hell out of here!" But he did have better career counting stats than I thought.
     
    Dick Whitman, Apr 5, 2016
    #13
  2. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    Rollins had an outstanding career. But this Phillies fan never once thought of him as a Hall candidate or even thought it a debateable issue until this thread was posted.
     
    Michael_ Gee, Apr 5, 2016
    #14
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I watched Bobby Grich play -- a bit. I have watched Jimmy Rollins play -- a bit. Bobby Grich relative to his era and the positions he played, was actually a better player in my opinion than Jimmy Rollins is to his. Although I don't think it would be ridiculous for anyone who saw them both play to have an opinion the other way. At the least, I suspect most people who feel one way or the other would agree it is relatively close (with neither of them being a hall of fame debate).

    Comparing a bunch of random numerical measures across different eras doesn't tell me who was a better player relative to his era. And comparing shortstops today to second basemen (although Grich wasn't a pure second baseman in the mold of say Frank White) in the 1970s makes zero sense to me. It's strat-0-matic. It isn't meaningful except if you want to contort yourself to assign whatever meaning you want to it.

    I look at players from their eras and look at how they were considered at the time relative to their peers. I also take into account that it is pretty difficult to get into the Hall of Fame. A lot of really good players -- who are actual debates -- fall short. Jimmy Rollins isn't a serious question. I am certain most of the voters will agree with my opinion on this one. Neither was Bobby Grich, for what it is worth. That was the point.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 5, 2016
    #15
  4. HanSenSE

    HanSenSE Well-Known Member

    Geez if a respect broadcaster like Harrelson said it, it must be so! [/bluefont]
     
    HanSenSE, Apr 5, 2016
    #16
  5. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Never said that.
     
    Dick Whitman, Apr 5, 2016
    #17
  6. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    [QUOTE="I look at players from their eras and look at how they were considered at the time relative to their peers. I also take into account that it is pretty difficult to get into the Hall of Fame. A lot of really good players -- who are actual debates -- fall short. Jimmy Rollins isn't a serious question. I am certain most of the voters will agree with my opinion on this one. Neither was Bobby Grich, for what it is worth. That was the point.[/QUOTE]

    That's how I feel about Tim Raines. I know people whose opinions I respect like Jonah Keri tout the HOF case for Raines, and cite how he reached base more times in his career than Tony Gwynn, but the guy didn't make an All-Star team for like the last two-thirds of his career, so not only was he not considered great by the fans, but he wasn't by managers or his peers, either.

    And no, ASG appearances are not the ultimate bellwether, but they do represent how a guy was perceived in his time. But Blyleven's few ASG appearances didn't keep him out and he eventually got in, so Raines probably will, too.
     
    CD Boogie, Apr 5, 2016
    #18
  7. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Nope. Grich is way better. And he's a Hall of Fame debate.

    That's actually pretty much precisely what OPS-plus does.

    You're right. We need to find the poster who introduced a bunch of second basemen into the conversation!

    Who cares what idiots thought?

    See above.
     
    Dick Whitman, Apr 5, 2016
    #19
  8. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    That's how I feel about Tim Raines. I know people whose opinions I respect like Jonah Keri tout the HOF case for Raines, and cite how he reached base more times in his career than Tony Gwynn, but the guy didn't make an All-Star team for like the last two-thirds of his career, so not only was he not considered great by the fans, but he wasn't by managers or his peers, either.[/QUOTE]

    So what?
     
    Dick Whitman, Apr 5, 2016
    #20
  9. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    So what?[/QUOTE]
    Great post.
     
    CD Boogie, Apr 5, 2016
    #21
  10. JC

    JC Well-Known Member

    That's how I feel about Tim Raines. I know people whose opinions I respect like Jonah Keri tout the HOF case for Raines, and cite how he reached base more times in his career than Tony Gwynn, but the guy didn't make an All-Star team for like the last two-thirds of his career, so not only was he not considered great by the fans, but he wasn't by managers or his peers, either.

    And no, ASG appearances are not the ultimate bellwether, but they do represent how a guy was perceived in his time. But Blyleven's few ASG appearances didn't keep him out and he eventually got in, so Raines probably will, too.[/QUOTE]
    This is nonsense. If fans didn't consider him great it's because he played his best years in Montreal or they were clueless.
     
    JC, Apr 5, 2016
    #22
  11. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    This is nonsense. If fans didn't consider him great it's because he played his best years in Montreal or they were clueless.[/QUOTE]

    His last ASG in 1987, also the last year he led the league in any category (runs). For the next 16 years (16!), he didn’t lead the league in anything, never placed higher than one 17th place finish in MVP, and spent 12 of those 16 years mostly playing in such backwaters as Chicago and New York. Great player, great peak, but he didn’t miss ASGs because he was playing in Montreal. He missed them bc he wasn’t an All-Star.
     
    CD Boogie, Apr 5, 2016
    #23
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I can't work with your mashup. But:

    1) Bobby Grich wasn't a Hall of Fame debate to the actual voters. He was off the ballot almost as soon as he was on.
    2) OPS+ is not a proxy for having a set of eyes. It is a random numerical measure that does not encompass a baseball player or how good he was (which is an opinion -- one that for most people encompasses tangible and intangible things). The plus part doesn't meaningfully compare eras, either. Taking a straight measure of something and then picking a couple of random variables (chosen by human decision) to do an adjustment isn't meaningful normalization. What about a million other things (which you may or may not be able to consider with your biases when randomly adjusting a measure) that make the two eras distinct, that you are NOT adjusting for? Just the choices of what you do try to adjust for introduces human bias to what was at least just a straight numerical calculation. It's statistics with crayons.
    3) I introduced a bunch of second basemen who all were as good or close to being as good as Rollins during their times, in my opinion, to suggest that they didn't get much Hall of Fame consideration either. You were the one who then posted something with random numbers related to Derek Jeter and Cal Ripkin.
    4) You see "idiots." I see people (his peers and fans) who actually watched Bobby Grich play and formed their opinion about him during his time.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 5, 2016
    #24
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