Lacrosse ugliness at U.Va.

An interesting case study is the Supremes, who I love. No one would call their lyrics feminist. A lot of them are "How Will I Know" on steroids. At the same time, they advanced the women's cause just by showing up, just by pumping out hits during a male-dominated era.

Media's impact, particularly pop culture's impact, on personal identity formation is an interesting area to think about.

 

Too much literal interpretation of a song about a young woman in love.

If anything, this kind of glurge from the mid-'80s defies interpretation.

 

Tell that to Quentin Tarantino

 

Herb's right. Being judged by the dopiest love-related statement you've ever made ought to terrify most of us. And those would be our own words, not a lyricist's.

 

Ain't that the truth. She was 21 years old when that song was written.

Blame Ronnie's family values movement, blame Clive Davis, blame radio control, blame shitty writing.

What do you expect from an era where "Why do I find it hard to write the next line" is an actual lyric from a smash hit song.

 

Here is the reality of discussions like this, if I may tie this back to Love and Rihanna.

Whatever pop culture influences you want to believe young girls internalize -- and I think it's a stretch to say one Whitney Houston song could have this kind of impact, but for Dick's sake I'll entertain the argument -- they're going to pale in comparison to the parental influence you have on your daughter. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. Sometimes you're going to have great parents who can't control their little girl and she ends up not valuing herself enough that she can't walk away fast enough from a Chris Brown or a George Huguely. But for the most part, good parenting is going to defeat pop culture nonsense in a blowout. A 49ers/Chargers Super Bowl blowout. The constant hand-wringing over "What about the children! What kind of message does this send?" focuses on something pretty minor in the development of female self esteem. One of the truly sad things about Love is that her father died of cancer when she was a freshman in high school, and I have to believe his absence in her life must of played at least some role in how she viewed male relationships. Rihanna's parents were divorced when she was 14, and her father was a crack addict.

I'd wager most kids don't delve too deeply into the meaning of lyrics in pop songs. They're certainly not analyzing them like a budding Nick Hornby. (Hell, a majority of ADULTS from the era we're talking about thought Born in the USA was a patriotic song, for heaven's sake.) But kids definitely know how their parents interact. They know what kind of father they have, if he's respectful, loving, smart and engaged.

 

So we talk about Phil Collins on the Whitney Houston thread and we talk about Whitney Houston on the UVa lacrosse murder trial thread.

Where do we talk about the UVa lacrosse murder trial?

 

I assume the Oscars thread. I found the Love murder trial less confusing and more interesting at times that Tree of Life.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. I suspect that we would rate pop culture's influence in different spots on the ranking of what shapes identity - me a little higher, you a little lower. But certainly parental involvement is most important. And I think you concede that pop culture's influence isn't non-existent.

And, like I've said, that one Whitney Houston song - which only became an exhibit because it came up during my stream of consciousness on her RIP thread - is just one tiny fraction of a message about identity that is being absorbed and internalized. There is a cumulative effect because a lot of what is reaching these girls has a loose narrative consistency: "You are defined by the sexual attention you receive from males." And I don't think they have to sit around and analyze the lyrics like a literature PhD candidate studying Donne. The way the message is received and converted is subtle and subconscious. But it certainly can take, and I believe there is plenty of psychological research to back that up.

You mention the lack of male father figures in the life of Yeardley Love and Rihanna, growing up. To me, this seems like the kind of vacuum that makes someone more vulnerable to letting culture influence them in a corrosive way. So, in sum: We're both right.

 

Someone should create a Phil Collins thread so we can go full circle.

 

It's refreshing to see a a bunch of grown men try to figure out the psyche of teen age women. DD is right. You pray as a parent that your little girl is smart enough to run away from the monsters of the world when they come in contact with them.

 

I pray every day, even though mine is 2. And I plan to price out shotguns when she hits 13.