Maddux, Glavine, Thomas elected to Baseball Hall of Fame; Biggio just misses

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

If Thomas was on just 50 percent of the remaining ballots from last year, he'd be 81 votes shy. He needs a little more than 70 percent the rest of the way to sneak over.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

I wish the voters could have first-time nominees wiped from their collective minds. As in, they don't know who's a first-timer.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

Chiming in on the "if you can't write it you can't use it"....

I disagree because they are totally different. In one case you have a legal obligation to be accurate because you can get sued. In the other you are talking about a totally subjective honor you're bestowing.

It's perfectly appropriate to have different standards.

Just because you can't write something doesn't mean you have to pretend you don't know it.

Again, I vote for the steroid guys. I'm just defending the right of the other side to have their opinion. There is no right or wrong here.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

Given the statement, he believes Bagwell's career is worthy of the Hall of Fame, but he is denying him the vote because of a suspicion of PED use that has no basis in fact at all. Withholding the vote is a punishment. Just because he may take it back later does not change that.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

I would defend their right just as soon as innuendo isn't steering the ship.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

Innuendo or opinion?

Guys are allowed to have ill informed opinions all the time, and many do on performance matters. But when it comes to this question "do you think Player X cheated?" you can't have an opinion?

The whole thing is an opinion.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

Judging a player's performance is subjective. How good a hitter was he? How good was he in the field? How good of a pitcher? There are objective facts that go into forming that opinion, but all it can ever be is an opinion.

Of course, there are opinions that are so ridiculous that they are clearly wrong. Rafael Belliard is not a Hall of Famer and we're all pretty clear on that, but even those opinions that are clearly wrong are not objectively incorrect.

That is not the case with PED use. The player either used or he did not. That is a factual matter. Just because we don't know the facts with many of these players does not make it subjective. That's where the problem comes in. You have voters using opinion as if it was fact, and that opinion is often based on innuendo, as shot suggested.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

wfw.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

But the issue is not whether he used or not necessarily. It's whether you think someone passes the "integrity and character" clauses to get into the HOF. (Edit: and I realize I didn't phrase that correctly in my original post, when I said the opinion is on whether the guy cheated. That's not really question. It's whether he's a HOFer.)

So you are judging his integrity in exactly the same way as you judge his ability to play shortstop.

Personally, I don't feel qualified to judge their integrity so I don't. However, some people do.

My point is they have a right to an opinion on a players integrity just as much as their opinion on how good of a player he is. Opinions are based on all sorts of incomplete or inaccurate information (on both performance and integrity) but they are still all opinions.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

I'll add that it only becomes an objective question of "did he or didn't he" if the HOF or MLB decides to pass some rule that players who use steroids can't get in.

Until then, all we have is opinions.

Even on the known steroid users, it's still an opinion on where you draw the line and how much weight to give to their PED use. Is Andy Pettitte's admitted use the same as Mark McGwire's? Some say yes. Some say no.

It's an opinion.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

I'm not talking about some voter saying Bonds is a bad guy. I'm talking about voters who choose to keep players out specifically for the "crime" of using PEDs. The rule they are applying is the one about integrity, but whether or not the player used is a fact.

Take Bagwell for example. If he is innocent of using PEDs, then what exactly is the issue with his integrity?

BB, I appreciate how open and fair you try to be in this, especially compared to how others who have a vote, or claim to have a vote, have acted on this site. I really do. But I think you are off on this one, probably because you are trying so hard to be fair to everybody.

 

Re: 2014 BBWAA Baseball Hall of Fame ballot released

The whole thing is completely subjective.

For argument's sake, we know Piazza used PEDs. How do you vote for Piazza and not Bonds or Clemens? I think a lot of it is, Piazza was open about it, even if it was OTR, and he had a great relationship with most of the people who covered him and he's being rewarded by getting a bit of a pass on the PED use.

Bonds and Clemens, two of the best players of all-time at any position, are not getting a pass, in part because the perception (and I'm sure the perception is correct) that they lied their asses off and to try to cover up their PED use.

I have no issue with Bagwell and Piazza making it into the Hall. I do have an issue with them making it over Clemens and Bonds.

We don't know who used and who didn't. I'd be surprised if Maddux, Glavine, Thomas or Biggio used, but I can't prove they didn't. All we have is our best educated guess, and if someone is taking the stance that for now they're not voting in any presumed PED users, it is not ridiculous to include Bagwell in that group.