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Mark McGwire scoop coming + info & opinions (READ)!!

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by John D. Villarreal, Jan 4, 2007.

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Do you think Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame?

  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    16.7%

  2. Yes, but not first ballot

    5 vote(s)
    10.4%

  3. Maybe

    5 vote(s)
    10.4%

  4. No

    30 vote(s)
    62.5%
Thread Status:
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Page 18 of 19
  1. Oz

    Oz Well-Known Member

    Your brother comes across much better on camera talking about McGwire than MCA of the Beastie Boys.
     
    Oz, Jan 6, 2007
    #205
  2. RokSki

    RokSki New Member

    Yeah, I saw MCA's videos there beside my brothers. I would imagine that MCA is not a double Berkeley grad. Ha ha.

    John just called me and said he's having trouble uploading his 3rd video right now. So, stay tuned. I can't wait to see him talk about Mark, should be interesting.
     
    RokSki, Jan 6, 2007
    #206
  3. Oz

    Oz Well-Known Member

    Where's the second video? I can't seem to find it. I just see MCA.
     
    Oz, Jan 6, 2007
    #207
  4. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    I'm trying to remember the name of the Greek hero whose principal weapon against all foes was his orations.

    Some of these recent screeds, just on sheer breadth alone, could truly decimate armies.
     
    Herbert Anchovy, Jan 6, 2007
    #208
  5. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Let's clear one thing up. Using steroids is against the rules of baseball now and it was illegal long before that. The fact that some users work their asses of doesn't impress me. So do a lot of guys who are doing it cleanly.

    One difference, and this is just my opinion, is that McGwire owes his career to steroids. He had a big rookie year, his numbers fell off and then suddenly he got VERY big.

    Bonds was a Hall of Famer when he was still a skinny guy hitting 20-plus homers and stealing 50 bases for the Pirates. If he had never used a single illegal performance enhancer, he might have a lot fewer home runs, but he would still be on his way to Cooperstown.

    Cheating is still cheating, no matter how many people do it. And steroids and HGH are illegal in baseball, no matter how large the problem may be.

    I'm not interested in listening to some pumped-up snake-oil salesman try to justify illegal behavior. And I'm even less interested in hearing him blather on about himself for a half hour first.

    Again, assuming this isn't bullshit, sorry for attacking your bro Rokski. I just don't buy what he's selling.
     
    outofplace, Jan 6, 2007
    #209
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Rokski, If this is your brother's point of view, it's hardly unique, and it doesn't take a self-proclaimed "expert" to feel that way. For what it's worth, it's a legitimate argument, because at least it starts out with the honest acknowledgment that past a certain point in the 90s, baseball was rife with players using performance-enhancing drugs, and those drugs gave them numbers on par with past greats who did it without the drugs.

    The question is how you deal with that fact. You're essentially arguing that you can't separate the users from the non-users, so we shouldn't even bother trying, and even if you could tell who did cheat and to what extent, there'd be so many users that we'd just have to accept that steroids and HGH are part of the landscape and say it's now officially a part of the game.

    But someone who feels differently, has an equally valid point of view. Because it *was* cheating. Bonds, Giambi, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc. all knew the drugs were illegal, and even more importantly, they knew from a perception standpoint that the public viewed it as cheating. If this wasn't true, they would have been using steroids openly, and they wouldn't lie about it now. You don't hide something and lie about it if you don't think others will view the behavior as wrong.

    With that in mind, some people feel that cheating shouldn't be rewarded, so it's essential that when circumstances, or irrefutable evidence, do point to a player having cheated, we have a moral obligation to not reward the player with adulation and induction into the Hall of Fame. This is as legitimate a point of view, as your's. You can accept that lots of players cheated, and at the same time feel like you can't reward the ones you're fairly certain were among the cheaters. It doesn't matter that you are not making an example of every cheater. You're dealing with the ones you know. The analogy would be that you don't let a rapist go because you haven't solved every single rape case.

    In any case, the majority of the journalists on this board are intelligent enough, and knowledgeable enough, to digest this and form their own opinions. And even if there is some piece of vital information missing from the debate, your brother, "the expert" hasn't given squat (no pun intended) except some ridiculous videos of himself wearing a shirt with his name on it and talking in circles.
     
    The Big Ragu, Jan 6, 2007
    #210
  7. DyePack

    DyePack New Member

    So, got any of that irrefutable evidence?












    P.S.: That's rhetorical. I know you don't.
     
    DyePack, Jan 6, 2007
    #211
  8. Smasher_Sloan

    Smasher_Sloan Active Member

    Jimmy the?
     
    Smasher_Sloan, Jan 6, 2007
    #212
  9. RokSki

    RokSki New Member

    Ragu, Outofplace - You both make very good, very compelling arguments, neither of which can be easily refuted. Out, no need to apologize for attacking my bro. If you feel he needs attacked, attack him. I'm just chiming in.

    Ragu - You might be completely correct about the usefullness of my brother's videos. I don't know what he's going to say. I am, however, fairly certain he won't be holding up a notarized document saying Mark did or did not test negative for steroids. Your point is well-made and taken, though. And I'm sorry if I sounded like a dick in the other thread. I just despise Diablo.

    Oz - If you want to see the other video, go to the one link you've already seen. Go to the top right and click on John's name, which will link to his 'channel' or whatever. The second video is labeled as 'Mark' as well, and the vid capture is text on a computer screen. Hope that helps.
     
    RokSki, Jan 6, 2007
    #213
  10. Fenian_Bastard

    Fenian_Bastard Guest

    I think the phrase,"I just despise Diablo" should be with us for awhile.
     
    Fenian_Bastard, Jan 6, 2007
    #214
  11. Rosie

    Rosie Active Member

    Well.

    This is quite the thread, isn't it.

    I just can't pass up the chance to post on the thread that threatens to surpass PickleJuice and Mitch Albom as the greatest in SportsJournalists.com history....

    The argument that steroids weren't specifically banned in baseball until recently doesn't justify their use. Steroids were still illegal -- against the law -- during that time. Most people have an innate sense of right and wrong, and most players who were using most likely knew they were doing something wrong. Otherwise, why not own up to it? Oh, they might be brought up on federal charges. Wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to wrap it up.

    The argument that "hey, the hitters were using so we pitchers had no choice" or vice versa is akin to "Mom, everyone has one!" The only answer to that is, "If your friends were going to jump off the Lake Street Bridge, would you too?" Peer pressure is again, no excuse for doing what's wrong.

    As far as JVD goes, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but regardless of what scoop his videos promise to deliver, I'm not going to take a youtube video as gospel. Especially when the progenitor is an unknown. I'm a firm believer in checking sources and double-checking facts. But what do I know, I'm just a small-town ink-stained wretch.
     
    Rosie, Jan 6, 2007
    #215
  12. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Nicely done, Rosie. You should write for a living or something...:)
     
    outofplace, Jan 6, 2007
    #216
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