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Meanwhile on the International front....

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by DanOregon, Apr 28, 2023.

  1. X-Hack

    X-Hack Well-Known Member

    He may be a rake on a chalkboard, but he's not incorrect. Israel recognizes LGBTQ+ rights while people do get killed in the West Bank (and in Gaza before 10/7) if they're identified as such. Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza have long sought asylum in Israel rather than facing honor-killings and the like. It's fairly well-documented. Which is why I always kind of get a chuckle combined with a feeling of sadness when I see shit like this:
    upload_2024-1-21_14-27-45.jpeg
    What kind of intersectional LGBTQ+ paradise do they think a Palestinian state -- particularly one "from the river to the sea" devoid of Jews -- would be? Is this willful ignorance or simple naivete?

    None of this in my mind excuses IDF tactics in Gaza right now or the way this government is carrying out the occupation in the West Bank and the way it's protecting the worst elements among the settlers. But come the fuck on. Just unveils the ongoing idiocy of the progressive woke left. I say this as a center-left individual myself.
     
  2. X-Hack

    X-Hack Well-Known Member

    There is no "shin" on a dreidel in Israel. The 4 letters (nun, gimel, hay, shin) stand for "nes gadol haya sham" -- "big miracle happened there." In Israel it would have a nun, gimel, hay and peh for "nes gadol haya po" -- "big miracle happened HERE." A small quibble.

    Netanyahu -- or at least his kids -- would also probably call it a s'vivon (spinner), which is what it's called in Hebrew and what most people call it in Israel (the term "dreidel" is Yiddish and a majority of Israeli Jews do not descend from Eastern European Yiddish speakers. And those who do still typically use modern Hebrew phrases, not old Yiddish phrases, though someone Netanyahu's age might have still used the Yiddish phrase as a kid).

    Anyway, I enjoyed your post and I enjoyed my opportunity to engage in pedantry while hopefully being somewhat informative.
     
    doctorquant likes this.
  3. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Gift Article: What Did Top Israeli War Officials Really Say About Gaza?

    In late November, the NPR reporter Leila Fadel interviewed the international-law scholar David Crane about a disquieting subject: potential genocide in Gaza. Crane was uniquely qualified to opine on this fraught topic, having served as the founding chief prosecutor for the UN’s Special Court for Sierra Leone, where he indicted the president of Liberia for war crimes. On air, he explained why he did not think Israel’s actions met the criteria.

    “If I was charged with investigating and prosecuting genocide,” Crane said, “I would have to have in large measure a smoking gun,” which he characterized as “a rebel group, a person, a head of state” explicitly directing those under their control to destroy a people in “whole or in part.” Precisely because genocide is the highest crime, proving it demands the highest standard of evidence. What is required, in relation to the current conflict, is not simply documentation of destruction or war crimes, and not just incendiary statements from individual soldiers or politicians with no role directing military operations, but rather a declaration of intent to eliminate Gazans—not just Hamas—by the top Israeli decision makers.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Crane said, had not made such a statement, which meant that legal intent could not be established. By contrast, he added, “Hamas has clearly stated that they intend to destroy, in whole or in part, the Israeli people and the Israeli state. That is a declaration of a genocidal intent.” Fadel was not convinced, and deftly countered with several damning quotes from the Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant: “We are fighting human animals.” “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything.” The segment ended inconclusively.

    Last week, a similar exchange unfolded on BBC radio, when an anchor pressed British Defense Secretary Grant Shapps about Israel’s conduct in Gaza. “The defense minister said, ‘We will eliminate everything,’ in relation to Gaza,” the host observed. Wasn’t this a clear call to violate international humanitarian law? Under repeated questioning, Shapps allowed that Gallant might have overstepped in the emotional aftermath of Hamas’s slaughter of more than 1,000 Israelis, but insisted that the quotation did not reflect the man he’d been regularly talking with about “trying to find ways to be precise and proportionate.”

    As it turns out, there’s a reason the quote did not sound like Gallant: The Israeli defense minister never really said it.
     
  4. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Any time you post information from Gaza health officials, it would be appropriate to mention that the information is coming from Hamas.
     
  5. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    Is "As it turns out ..." worse or way worse than "Well actually ..."?
     
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Yup.

    And I'd point out that in 2011 and 2012. ... when that Gallup poll was taken ... Mahmoud Abbas refused to even sit at the table to discuss peace with Israel in an effort that was led by King Abdullah of Jordan, with the U.S., Russia, the EU and the UN involved.

    This has been the story over and over again.
     
  7. dixiehack

    dixiehack Well-Known Member

    I do not need convincing that Palestinian leadership is terrible or that many of the people they represent hold abhorrent views. But the same goes for the other end of the street.
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    The old "both sides." Of course you can find Israeli politicians -- extremists -- who don't want peace.

    But the history of attempted peace talks never had Israel -- whoever was PM at the time -- unwilling to talk when others tried to broker peace. That street has been one way -- over and over again, except when Rabin signed the Oslo Accords. ... and nothing changed, anyhow.

    The PLO. ... wanted Israel wiped off the map. Period. There is no equivalency to anyone Israel had leading the country in the 60s, 70s, 80s into the early 90s. Israel wanted to be left alone. They were dealing with hostile neighbors who were a constant military threat, and for the PLO it was "river to the sea," all they would accept is Israel wiped off the map. Don't forget, that pre-1967 map that is always the precondition the Palestinian Authority knows will end peace talks didn't change because Israel was threatening the Arab world.

    The Oslo Accords in 1993 created the Palestinian National Authority and officially the State of Palestine. It certainly hasn't been a "both sides" thing for the last 30 years. Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas shot down every attempt at peace with preconditions they knew were non starters BEFORE even agreeing to talk. And in fact, you have had PMs like Rabin, Peres, Ehud Barak and Olmert who were very eager for some kind of peace. ... but got nowhere, with the exception of Rabin, who like I said got peace in name, but the same old in reality.

    Of course you have had PMs like Naftali Bennet and Netanyahu who have opposed a Palestinian State, but it's never been because of religious hatred or an unyielding "river to the sea" mission. It's because rightly or wrongly they think that what they will get for it is a Palestinian state where Hamas, Hezbollah and a constant threat to Israel still exists. ... continued suicide bombers, Iranian rockets being lobbed toward Israel and terrorist operations like October 7.

    It takes two sides wanting peace for there to be a legitimate peace. As hard-line as Netanyahu is in his stance. ... if you had the majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank ready to accept Israel and the terrorism stopped, Israel would be all over peaceful coexistence -- would have been at pretty much any time over the last 70 years.
     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    BTW, Israel signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, two countries that previously had refused to accept its right to exist and had threatened it militarily. Recently, it normalized relations with the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan. Under Netanyahu, it was on the cusp of a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia until October 7 happened.

    The idea that Israel -- regardless who has been in power -- is the obstacle to peace just defies all reality. If the people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank legitimately wanted peace. ... there would have been peaceful coexistence long ago.

    This the reality of what they are dealing with and what has been the true obstacle to peace: Palestinian Authority's textbooks glorify terror, antisemitism
     
  10. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member

    Don't tell that to Dr. Bühler ...

    ICEJ Executive Director Dr. Jürgen Bühler responded by wishing the prime minister a "Happy Hanukkah" and giving him a huge silver Hanukkah dreidel as a gift. A dreidel is a special top that children play with during Hanukkah.

    https://www2.cbn.com/news/news/netanyahu-greets-christians-worldwide-christmas

    Bühler ... Bühler ...
     
  11. Twirling Time

    Twirling Time Well-Known Member

    The story might state different if it were in Hebrew rather than English. Just saying.
     
  12. X-Hack

    X-Hack Well-Known Member

    I have no doubt anyone who's part of the ICEJ calls them "dreidels." Pretty much everyone in the West does.

    But is he good enough to make it to The Show?

     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2024
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