MLB HOF debate thread

Montezuma's Revenge · Feb 27, 2007

Are you dissing Ken Camini?

Guy_Incognito · Feb 27, 2007

casty33 said:

The Veteran's Committee was formed to take care of the BBWAA "mistakes." These are now Hall of Fame players voting, and they are putting in nobody ... again. I think that means BBWAA voters haven't made mistakes, doesn't it? Or am I reading it wrong?
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You might be. It could be that the "mistakes" are those who were let in (Perez, Sutton, Carter, Neikro), those who haven't lost their eligibility yet (Gossage, Rice etc.), or that the VC is making the same mistakes as the writers did.

Possible.

novelist_wannabe · Feb 27, 2007

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

But Perez was the feared hitter in a dynasty. Bagwell had a nice little non-title career. That's why sabermetrics doesn't get someone in the Hall.
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So being in the Hall of Fame is based on whether you are lucky enough to play for a team that wins a title? Thank you for playing Ted Williams and Ernie Banks. Pick up your party favors at the door.

Do you honestly believe that if the roles were reversed (Bagwell playing for Big Red Machine, Perez for 90s Astros) that the Reds would have won any fewer titles or that Perez would have carried Houston to a title?
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Banks and Williams had numbers beyond reproach and defined their era. Bagwell did not even come close; barely above woodwork.

And if "if" was a spliff, we'd all be tripping. You know better than to engage in theoretical "what ifs" between different eras.
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So if Bagwell had batted fourth for the 95-01 Yankees -- the Big Red Machine of his era -- he would be in the Hall, even with identical numbers?
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If he'd played in New York, he'd be in because of the size of the media market and the plethora of national media there.

Piotr Rasputin · Feb 27, 2007

Hodges should be in.

Marvin Miller should have made it the moment he resigned as Union boss.

BYH · Feb 27, 2007

cranberry said:

casty33 said:

I don't disagree with you, cranberry, but your argument (or disgust) is with the HOF players doing the voting now. We in the BBWAA don't have an opportunity to vote for Marvin Miller. I think that tells you something about the selfishness of players who have been made quite rich by Mr. Miller.
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I think the number of people on the ballot plus the need for 75 percent makes it pretty much a mathematic impossibility to get elected. Re: the "selfish" players, I think there's some of the typical "Now that I'm in, let's shut the door" attitude but a lot of the players were pre-Marvin, too. A lot of those guys seem to resent that players are treated well nowadays. I'd suggest they look at their pension checks next time Marvin's on the ballot. At 90, I hope Marvin is still around next time.
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Is Gene Upshaw on the vets committee?

dooley_womack1 · Feb 28, 2007

novelist_wannabe said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

But Perez was the feared hitter in a dynasty. Bagwell had a nice little non-title career. That's why sabermetrics doesn't get someone in the Hall.
Click to expand...

So being in the Hall of Fame is based on whether you are lucky enough to play for a team that wins a title? Thank you for playing Ted Williams and Ernie Banks. Pick up your party favors at the door.

Do you honestly believe that if the roles were reversed (Bagwell playing for Big Red Machine, Perez for 90s Astros) that the Reds would have won any fewer titles or that Perez would have carried Houston to a title?
Click to expand...

Banks and Williams had numbers beyond reproach and defined their era. Bagwell did not even come close; barely above woodwork.

And if "if" was a spliff, we'd all be tripping. You know better than to engage in theoretical "what ifs" between different eras.
Click to expand...

So if Bagwell had batted fourth for the 95-01 Yankees -- the Big Red Machine of his era -- he would be in the Hall, even with identical numbers?
Click to expand...

If he'd played in New York, he'd be in because of the size of the media market and the plethora of national media there.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's why Goose Gossage is in and Bruce Sutter isn't....oh, wait.

Tom Petty · Feb 28, 2007

Montezuma's Revenge said:

Tom Petty said:

naw, it's all about OPS ... just ask montezuma. he's heard about it while watching sunday night baseball.
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You are a moronic one-trick pony. You acted like OPS is some fucking science-fiction stat. All I said was that it was mainstream enough that they mention it on telecasts all the time. Is that information really that fucking hard for you to process, you fucktarded simpleton?
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no you fucking idiot. my point was OPS was a saber stat.

and no fucking shit they mention OPS on telecasts. you just start watching last year?

PopeDirkBenedict · Feb 28, 2007

dooley_womack1 said:

If you're going to deny the assertion of Perez's peers that he was consistently the most feared on the Big Red Machine, day in and day out, then knock yourself out. Jeff Bagwell was the most feared in the Houston lineup, more feared than Richard Hidalgo, Morgan Ensberg, Ken Camini, etc, etc.
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Anyone who feared Tony Perez more than Joe Morgan, Pete Rose or Johnny Bench doesn't deserve to have their opinion taken seriously.

HeinekenMan · Feb 28, 2007

I read a story last night that mentioned two different fielding statistics that I've never heard of. I think one was range factor. The writer provided a definition for them, but I was a little surprised to see them introduced in one graf and then explained in a longer graf. One of the stats sounded as convoluted as the quadratic formula.

cranberry · Feb 28, 2007

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

If you're going to deny the assertion of Perez's peers that he was consistently the most feared on the Big Red Machine, day in and day out, then knock yourself out. Jeff Bagwell was the most feared in the Houston lineup, more feared than Richard Hidalgo, Morgan Ensberg, Ken Camini, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Anyone who feared Tony Perez more than Joe Morgan, Pete Rose or Johnny Bench doesn't deserve to have their opinion taken seriously.
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When pitchers talk about "feared" hitters they are talking about power -- the kind of guy who could do big damage with one swing. I think some pitchers of the time would tell you that Perez, at his best, was the most feared hitter in the lineup while others might go with Bench. Both were scary hitters in that lineup. Rose and Morgan were not "feared" in the sense that power hitters are feared.

PopeDirkBenedict · Feb 28, 2007

cranberry said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

If you're going to deny the assertion of Perez's peers that he was consistently the most feared on the Big Red Machine, day in and day out, then knock yourself out. Jeff Bagwell was the most feared in the Houston lineup, more feared than Richard Hidalgo, Morgan Ensberg, Ken Camini, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Anyone who feared Tony Perez more than Joe Morgan, Pete Rose or Johnny Bench doesn't deserve to have their opinion taken seriously.
Click to expand...

When pitchers talk about "feared" hitters they are talking about power -- the kind of guy who could do big damage with one swing. I think some pitchers of the time would tell you that Perez, at his best, was the most feared hitter in the lineup while others might go with Bench. Both were scary hitters in that lineup. Rose and Morgan were not "feared" in the sense that power hitters are feared.
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Which explains why being "feared" is a classic bullshit dump. All three of those players were clearly better than Perez, who racked up big RBI totals because he had Morgan, Griffey and Rose batting in front of him. Whether or not Perez was feared is irrelevant to judging his performance as a player.

cranberry · Feb 28, 2007

PopeDirkBenedict said:

cranberry said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

If you're going to deny the assertion of Perez's peers that he was consistently the most feared on the Big Red Machine, day in and day out, then knock yourself out. Jeff Bagwell was the most feared in the Houston lineup, more feared than Richard Hidalgo, Morgan Ensberg, Ken Camini, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Anyone who feared Tony Perez more than Joe Morgan, Pete Rose or Johnny Bench doesn't deserve to have their opinion taken seriously.
Click to expand...

When pitchers talk about "feared" hitters they are talking about power -- the kind of guy who could do big damage with one swing. I think some pitchers of the time would tell you that Perez, at his best, was the most feared hitter in the lineup while others might go with Bench. Both were scary hitters in that lineup. Rose and Morgan were not "feared" in the sense that power hitters are feared.
Click to expand...

Which explains why being "feared" is a classic bullshit dump. All three of those players were clearly better than Perez, who racked up big RBI totals because he had Morgan, Griffey and Rose batting in front of him. Whether or not Perez was feared is irrelevant to judging his performance as a player.
Click to expand...

Wrong, for the same reason power hitters get paid more than singles hitters: they're more valuable. Joe Morgan was probably the best all-around hitter of the four, followed by Bench. Perez was the best pure power guy and Rose was a pretty one-dimensional player, although no one has ever been better in that dimension.

Here's the career OPS+ for each:

Morgan - 132
Bench - 126
Perez - 122
Rose - 118

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MLB HOF debate thread

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