MLB Playoffs

farmerjerome · Oct 22, 2006

Have they said what he had on his hand yet?

broadway joe · Oct 22, 2006

bigpern23 said:

broadway joe said:

Columbo said:

bigpern23 said:

Guy_Incognito said:

This conversation is boring me, kind of like the WS.

Let's get back to some NYSportsJournalists.com:

- While Torre had the worse series, none of his moves were as blatantly awful & damaging as Randolph not bunting in the 9th, and I'm not usually a fan of the sacrafice, but that's a no-brainer.

- Who's going to explain the difference between the performances of the 2 NY 3Bs in the postseason, other than a few octaves in the post-game interview?

- As a championship snob, I'll be disappointed by this year's champ, as I have been for many of the recent champs, but really bothered by the Cards if they do it. What a mediocre team.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Willie's decision to leave his closer on the bench in the ninth inning to let Heilman, who had never pitched a postseason game before this year, pitch to St. Louis.

I realize having Rivera is different than Wagner, but there's no way Torre uses anyone other than his closer in the top of the ninth in a tie Game 7 at home.
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Managers usually bring in the closer in the top of the 9th, or 10th, matching up the closer against the top of the order, or 3-4-5.

I probably would have waited for the 10th, too, figuring that Heilman could handle the bottom of the order.
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Wagner had been lit up in both of his previous appearances in the series. I don't blame Randolph for not going to him. Heilman had been much more effective.
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I just think you're better off with the guy who has 300-plus career saves than the middle reliever with a 4-plus career ERA who has never faced that kind of pressure before. I understand Heilman had been better, but if you're giving up on Wagner then, I think you're giving up on him for good.

And as far as letting Heilman handle the bottom of the order, again, I would think Wagner could pitch two innings if he had to. The bottom line is, your goal is to shut them down in the top and score in the bottom. Don't save your big guns for an inning that might not (and did not) happen.
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Heilman's not a middle reliever, he's the set-up man, and he had been at least as reliable as Wagner, if not more so, for about the last two months. Beyond that, it's Game 7. You go with the guy you think is most likely to pitch a scoreless inning in that situation. If that means giving up on Wagner, so be it. He hadn't pitched well in non-save situations all year and that was not the time to hope he would suddenly change. You don't save your big gun, but Wagner, at that point in time, was not the Mets' big gun.

Armchair_QB · Oct 22, 2006

And over on ESPN, Cincinnati and South Florida are both being outscored by the Tigers.

2-0 Bearcats late in the third. Yes, this is a football game.

EDIT: As I posted this the Cincy defense returned a fumble about 35 yards for TD. 9-0 Bearcats now.

bigpern23 · Oct 22, 2006

broadway joe said:

bigpern23 said:

broadway joe said:

Columbo said:

bigpern23 said:

Guy_Incognito said:

This conversation is boring me, kind of like the WS.

Let's get back to some NYSportsJournalists.com:

- While Torre had the worse series, none of his moves were as blatantly awful & damaging as Randolph not bunting in the 9th, and I'm not usually a fan of the sacrafice, but that's a no-brainer.

- Who's going to explain the difference between the performances of the 2 NY 3Bs in the postseason, other than a few octaves in the post-game interview?

- As a championship snob, I'll be disappointed by this year's champ, as I have been for many of the recent champs, but really bothered by the Cards if they do it. What a mediocre team.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Willie's decision to leave his closer on the bench in the ninth inning to let Heilman, who had never pitched a postseason game before this year, pitch to St. Louis.

I realize having Rivera is different than Wagner, but there's no way Torre uses anyone other than his closer in the top of the ninth in a tie Game 7 at home.
Click to expand...

Managers usually bring in the closer in the top of the 9th, or 10th, matching up the closer against the top of the order, or 3-4-5.

I probably would have waited for the 10th, too, figuring that Heilman could handle the bottom of the order.
Click to expand...

Wagner had been lit up in both of his previous appearances in the series. I don't blame Randolph for not going to him. Heilman had been much more effective.
Click to expand...

I just think you're better off with the guy who has 300-plus career saves than the middle reliever with a 4-plus career ERA who has never faced that kind of pressure before. I understand Heilman had been better, but if you're giving up on Wagner then, I think you're giving up on him for good.

And as far as letting Heilman handle the bottom of the order, again, I would think Wagner could pitch two innings if he had to. The bottom line is, your goal is to shut them down in the top and score in the bottom. Don't save your big guns for an inning that might not (and did not) happen.
Click to expand...

Heilman's not a middle reliever, he's the set-up man, and he had been at least as reliable as Wagner, if not more so, for about the last two months. Beyond that, it's Game 7. You go with the guy you think is most likely to pitch a scoreless inning in that situation. If that means giving up on Wagner, so be it. He hadn't pitched well in non-save situations all year and that was not the time to hope he would suddenly change. You don't save your big gun, but Wagner, at that point in time, was not the Mets' big gun.
Click to expand...

A set-up man, by definition, would be a middle reliever, but sorry for not being more specific. Anyway, agree to disagree on this one. I prefer experience in that situation. You say ride the hot hand. We know how one theory worked out. We'll never know how the other one would have.

BYH · Oct 22, 2006

Armchair_QB said:

And over on ESPN, Cincinnati and South Florida are both being outscored by the Tigers.

2-0 Bearcats late in the third. Yes, this is a football game.

EDIT: As I posted this the Cincy defense returned a fumble about 35 yards for TD. 9-0 Bearcats now.
Click to expand...

What the fuck is it with college football playing on SUNDAY NIGHT?! Wrong on so many levels.

What are we down to now, one night a week w/o college football?

Guy_Incognito · Oct 22, 2006

bigpern23 said:

Guy_Incognito said:

This conversation is boring me, kind of like the WS.

Let's get back to some NYSportsJournalists.com:

- While Torre had the worse series, none of his moves were as blatantly awful & damaging as Randolph not bunting in the 9th, and I'm not usually a fan of the sacrafice, but that's a no-brainer.

- Who's going to explain the difference between the performances of the 2 NY 3Bs in the postseason, other than a few octaves in the post-game interview?

- As a championship snob, I'll be disappointed by this year's champ, as I have been for many of the recent champs, but really bothered by the Cards if they do it. What a mediocre team.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Willie's decision to leave his closer on the bench in the ninth inning to let Heilman, who had never pitched a postseason game before this year, pitch to St. Louis.

I realize having Rivera is different than Wagner, but there's no way Torre uses anyone other than his closer in the top of the ninth in a tie Game 7 at home.
Click to expand...

He said it as well as I could:

ACTUALLY, YEAH, I HAVE SEEN THAT MOVIE
In today's Newsday, Wallace Matthews rages that Willie Randolph punted the series by not going back to Billy Wagner in the ninth inning rather than Aaron Heilman. He doesn't mention Buck Showalter/John Wetteland, as I did yesterday, but he's making the same kind of point. In making his argument, he asks:

"Can anyone imagine Joe Torre staying with Kyle Farnsworth in the same situation and 'saving' Mariano Rivera for later? Now, at least the Mets have saved Wagner for Opening Day 2007."

Sure, I can imagine that. So can every other Yankees fan who was breathing in 2003. It's called Game 4 of that World Series, and it was worse than Kyle Farnsworth over Mariano Rivera. It was glove-chewin' Jeff Weaver over Mariano Rivera, and it remains one of the dumbest things that a Hall of Fame-bound manager ever did.

Choosing Heilman isn't quite the same level of sinfulness. Weaver was an ineffective wreck who hadn't pitched in a fortnight or longer. Heilman did a good job setting up for the Mets this year, and in a thousand years of facing Yadier Molina he might not give up another home run. We all like to second-guess, but sometimes these things happen. Just because the outcome was bad doesn't necessarily mean the decision was wrong.
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http://www.yesnetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061016&content_id=1411503&oid=36019&vkey=6

Guy_Incognito · Oct 22, 2006

buckweaver said:

Guy_Incognito said:

- As a championship snob, I'll be disappointed by this year's champ, as I have been for many of the recent champs, but really bothered by the Cards if they do it. What a mediocre team.
Click to expand...

Yeah, because those 2000 Yanks -- with 87 wins -- were a real powerhouse. I'm sure you were disappointed then, too. :
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Cute, but different & you know it. After winning a few titles, you're the favortie until you lose, like the Belicheck Pats who kept coming into the playoffs looking vulberable (I think, I didn't go check, but again, you know what I mean).

Herbert Anchovy · Oct 22, 2006

BYH said:

Armchair_QB said:

And over on ESPN, Cincinnati and South Florida are both being outscored by the Tigers.

2-0 Bearcats late in the third. Yes, this is a football game.

EDIT: As I posted this the Cincy defense returned a fumble about 35 yards for TD. 9-0 Bearcats now.
Click to expand...

What the fuck is it with college football playing on SUNDAY NIGHT?! Wrong on so many levels.

What are we down to now, one night a week w/o college football?
Click to expand...

ESPN's flailing attempt to compete with NBC on Sunday night.

spnited · Oct 22, 2006

Kenny fucking Rogers ... snarling, surly, choking Kenny Rogers has 23+ shutout innings this month and is out there pumping his fists and yelling and carrying on.
He has to be consuming the ultimate amphetamine cocktail .. that fucker is so juiced he's flying out there!

BYH · Oct 22, 2006

spnited said:

Kenny fucking Rogers ... snarling, surly, choking Kenny Rogers has 23+ shutout innings this month and is out there pumping his fists and yelling and carrying on.
He has to be consuming the ultimate amphetamine cocktail .. that fucker is so juiced he's flying out there!
Click to expand...

All I know is I wouldn't want to be the guy to tell him about Shawne Merriman.

JBHawkEye · Oct 22, 2006

According to John Mellencamp, this is our country.

spnited · Oct 22, 2006

JBHawkEye said:

According to John Mellencamp, this is our country.
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Would shooting John Mellancamp right now be consider justifiable homicide?

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