Most overrated baseball player of all time

Columbo · Jul 11, 2006

PopeDirkBenedict said:

Junkie said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

No, baseball stat geeks are not overwhelmed by pitching wins. I've argued before that individual wins are a fairly meaningless stat because it is dependent on offense (for micro examples, ask Harvey Haddix). You must not hang out with a lot of sabermetrics guys if you think that.
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Just look at some of the Cy Young winners of the last 25 years for evidence. The biggest winner, not the best pitcher, seems to win more often than not.
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Stat geeks agree with you. For example, Clemens got robbed last year and Randy Johnson got robbed before that in his last year in Arizona. The vast majority of BBWAA guys/gals are definitely not stat geeks and they do base the votes on wins alone.
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The Smoltz-over-Brown Cy Young debacle of 1996 is utterly galling.

I hate moron baseball writers

Buck · Jul 11, 2006

Jeter in the playoffs: .307 BA, .841 OPS, .463 slg, .378 OBP, 47 RBIs, 16 HRs, 81 runs scored

Columbo · Jul 11, 2006

Buck said:

Jeter in the playoffs: .307 BA, .841 OPS, .463 slg, .378 OBP, 47 RBIs, 16 HRs, 81 runs scored
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How do you think that ARod matches up in the non-volume categories?

fever_dog · Jul 11, 2006

Junkie said:

fever_dog said:

nolan ryan's greatest attribute was his durability. he was a power pitcher for a long time, and that's cool.
the seven no-hitters are also cool and spectacular and all that, but what do they really mean? seven wins in the standings over a 25-plus year career.

i clump nolan ryan -- WHO IS AN ALL-TIME GREAT, make no mistake -- in with the barry sanders-type crowd. a lot of flash, for ryan it was Ks and no-hitters, for barry, it was 80-yard runs and spectacular cutbacks and jukes for a 5-yard gain, but i prefer sustained dominance and excellence.

sanders couldn't consistently move the chains because he was trying to break 80 yards, and frankly he didn't have the physical style to pound the rock.

ryan's sheer volume of pitches, high walk totals and lack of location often put a lot of pressure on the defense, and led to some long half innings.
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The Sanders-Ryan comparison is actually a good one, but for a different reason: Both played on such horseshit teams, yet excelled in spite of them. Ryan didn't win more than half his games for a long time because he played on shitty Angels teams. Sanders couldn't "move the chains" because defenses were completely geared top stop him, unlike say, a vastly over-rated played like Emmitt Smith, whose offensive line a one-legged fat dude could have moved the chains behind .
You say you prefer sustained dominance and excellence, yet denigrate two of the must sustained, excellent careers in sports history. Who sustained excellence in baseball history longer than Nolan Ryan? Nobody. And Sanders, who chose to walk away from said horseshit team while still in peak form, would have been the all-time rushing leader by about 5,000 yards had he kept playing.
Baseball statgeeks are so overwhelmed by wins (pitching wins, not team wins) as a meaningful stat. In that case, Charles Nagy was one of the best pitchers of the 90s. From 1995-99 Nagy went 80-43. During that time, his best ERA was 4.63. Put Nolan Ryan on those Cleveland teams and he'd have been about 114-6.
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i denigrated neither. i said they were both all-time greats. all i said was they delivered more flash than goods. at no time was ryan ever the best pitcher in baseball.

barry is the nfl's all-time leader in carries for losses.

HoopsMcCann · Jul 11, 2006

yourbuddy said:

That's 15, so I was off-base when I said Ryan doesn't make the top 20 all-time. Â He does, just barely. Â IMO, of course - and you're welcome to present an argument for Ryan being better than any of the above pitchers.
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this is where this thread went from ridiculous to Ã¼berridiculous -- "yeah, he's one of the top 20 pitchers all time, but he sucks!"

BYH · Jul 11, 2006

The concept that Nolan Ryan was overrated is one of the handful of silliest things I've ever read here.

Sam Mills 51 · Jul 11, 2006

Lee Jackson Beauregard said:

Herman Moore's a Hall of Famer.

OK, I'm only half-kidding on that. But Mel Gray is.
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Hey, no more picking on Barry Sanders. But I will continue to laugh at any clown that thinks Emmitt Smith was ever better.

Mel Gray should join Barry Sanders in the Hall of Fame. One more thing: The Lions might have been smart to give Erik Kramer a few more years behind center. The year Detroit smeared Dallas in the playoffs, he was the QB who took full advantage of Hairspray's declaration that "Barry Sanders will not beat us."

The best part? After Kramer and Herman Moore and Co. got done peppering the Cowboys' secondary, Sanders popped a big touchdown run. Beautiful ... and no, I'm not a Lions fan.

Back on topic: Anyone who thinks Nolan Ryan is overrated is brain dead. Some of these guys listed with and over him played on teams where a lot of us on this board could have racked up some wins. If Nolan had ever enjoyed a stint with a team that had some bats, this argument wouldn't have ever started.

yourbuddy · Jul 11, 2006

dooley_womack1 said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

dooley_womack1 said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

Left_Coast said:

yourbuddy said:

Tex 2K said:

yourbuddy said:

Â Nowadays many people forget that Ryan was merely an above-average pitcher for most of his career, with just a few dominant seasons mixed in.Â He's nowhere close to being one of the all-time greatest pitchers.
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Yeah, alright, this is where I stop treating you like a functioning adult.
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What is your argument for Ryan being on of the 10 greatest pitchers of all-time? Â Sure, he threw seven no-hitters - but that's only a few games. Â I'm looking at his entire career, and I can't see how you can even put him in the top 20 pitchers ever. Â
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Then list the top 20 pitchers of all time.
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Here are twenty pitchers better than Nolan Ryan (in no particular order)

1. Roger Clemens
2. Greg Maddux
3. Tom Seaver
4. Steve Carlton
5. Cy Young
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Bob Feller
8. Warren Spahn
9. Sandy Koufax
10. Bob Gibson
11. Walter Johnson
12. Pete Alexander
13. Randy Johnson
14. Tom Glavine
15. Pedro Martinez
16. Jim Palmer
17. Lefty Grove
18. Robin Roberts
19. Fergie Jenkins
20. Whitey Ford

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Itals indicate arguable point. Strikethroughs indicate "are you outta your mind?" Those left alone, I have no argument about. That adds up to six on your list who I think you're solid on.

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For the guys you left a strikethrough, ask yourself this: would you rather have their best season or Ryan's? Find me any season the equal of Maddux's 93-98. Or Gibson's 1968. Or Pedro's run in Boston.

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Best season doesn't make a difference. Career as a whole is what I care about in defining an "all-time great" And saying 19 no-hitters would be virtually meaningless cuts into your cred more than the Belinsky thing does.

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Under what reasonable standard for an entire career is Greg Maddux not better than Nolan Ryan?

More wins? Check 325-324
Better ERA? Check 3.01-3.19
Better WHIP? Check 1.13-1.24
Better K/BB ratio? Check 3.36-2.04
Cy Youngs? Check 4-0

But because Maddux has never captured our imagination with some magical performance but instead decided to help his team by pitching consistently great throughout the majority of his career he isn't the equal to Don Sutton with a blazing fastball?

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Ryan's ERA is awesome for a power pitcher. Cy Young awards are more a reflection of the team and the peers. And ignoring the strikeouts every time you do one of these stats comparisons is disingenous. People in general don't give a shit about ratio, tho people putting together a pitching staff should. But they care that someone can blow away batters at least 25 percent better than anyone else in history. Has Hank Aaron hit at least 25 percent more homers than anyone else in history? And since when does a 1.24 ratio suck, anyway.

One more point. Maddux's ERA has been ballooning the last 3-4 years. Ryan, the 3-4 years up till that one-season-too-far year that prompted him to retire, had sparkling ERAs.

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Maddux's career ERA is 3.01 compared to 4.15 league average over that span. Â Nolan Ryan's was 3.19 versus 3.57 league average. Â Even if Maddux puts in a couple more mediocre seasons, he'll still have been much better compared to his peers than Ryan ever was.

yourbuddy · Jul 11, 2006

HoopsMcCann said:

yourbuddy said:

That's 15, so I was off-base when I said Ryan doesn't make the top 20 all-time. Â He does, just barely. Â IMO, of course - and you're welcome to present an argument for Ryan being better than any of the above pitchers.
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this is where this thread went from ridiculous to Ã¼berridiculous -- "yeah, he's one of the top 20 pitchers all time, but he sucks!"
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Find a quote from me, or anyone else on this thread, that says that Nolan Ryan sucked.

Overrated · Jul 11, 2006

Sam Mills 51 said:

Lee Jackson Beauregard said:

Herman Moore's a Hall of Famer.

OK, I'm only half-kidding on that. But Mel Gray is.
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Hey, no more picking on Barry Sanders. But I will continue to laugh at any clown that thinks Emmitt Smith was ever better.

Mel Gray should join Barry Sanders in the Hall of Fame. One more thing: The Lions might have been smart to give Erik Kramer a few more years behind center. The year Detroit smeared Dallas in the playoffs, he was the QB who took full advantage of Hairspray's declaration that "Barry Sanders will not beat us."

The best part? After Kramer and Herman Moore and Co. got done peppering the Cowboys' secondary, Sanders popped a big touchdown run. Beautiful ... and no, I'm not a Lions fan.

Back on topic: Anyone who thinks Nolan Ryan is overrated is brain dead. Some of these guys listed with and over him played on teams where a lot of us on this board could have racked up some wins. If Nolan had ever enjoyed a stint with a team that had some bats, this argument wouldn't have ever started.
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Getting rid of Kramer wrecked the Lions.

Columbo · Jul 11, 2006

Sam Mills 51 said:

Lee Jackson Beauregard said:

Herman Moore's a Hall of Famer.

OK, I'm only half-kidding on that. But Mel Gray is.
Click to expand...

Hey, no more picking on Barry Sanders. But I will continue to laugh at any clown that thinks Emmitt Smith was ever better.
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Christ.. which Pennywise has done that?

DyePack · Jul 11, 2006

Overrated said:

Sam Mills 51 said:

Lee Jackson Beauregard said:

Herman Moore's a Hall of Famer.

OK, I'm only half-kidding on that. But Mel Gray is.
Click to expand...

Hey, no more picking on Barry Sanders. But I will continue to laugh at any clown that thinks Emmitt Smith was ever better.

Mel Gray should join Barry Sanders in the Hall of Fame. One more thing: The Lions might have been smart to give Erik Kramer a few more years behind center. The year Detroit smeared Dallas in the playoffs, he was the QB who took full advantage of Hairspray's declaration that "Barry Sanders will not beat us."

The best part? After Kramer and Herman Moore and Co. got done peppering the Cowboys' secondary, Sanders popped a big touchdown run. Beautiful ... and no, I'm not a Lions fan.

Back on topic: Anyone who thinks Nolan Ryan is overrated is brain dead. Some of these guys listed with and over him played on teams where a lot of us on this board could have racked up some wins. If Nolan had ever enjoyed a stint with a team that had some bats, this argument wouldn't have ever started.
Click to expand...

Getting rid of Kramer wrecked the Lions.
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Bud Fox: Why do you have to wreck this company?

Gordon Geico: Because it's wreckable!

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