Most overrated baseball player of all time

yourbuddy · Jul 11, 2006

OK, one more thing: Â Dooley, PopeDirk is (I think) talking about dominance in ERA, not Ks. Â Ryan has it all over Maddux in strikeouts, but he never came close to dominating the league in ERA like Maddux did from 1992-98.

About Ripken - would he have been better if he had taken a few days off now and then? Â I look at his 1999 season, where he missed most of the first two months recovering from injuries, then hit close to .400 over the last half of the season. Â

The Big Ragu · Jul 11, 2006

DyePack said:

The Big Ragu said:

buckweaver said:

The Big Ragu said:

Completely disagree about Nolan Ryan.

For the purposes of this discussion I will limit it to Hall of Famers. Guy who always kind of bugged me was Cal Ripkin, Jr. Don't get me wrong. He was a great player, a symbol of the game and he redefined the shortstop position, leading the way for taller, more powerful hitters like Tejada, Jeter and ARod. But the memory of him for people always seemed greater than his actual performance, in part due to his streak. He was usually around a .270 hitter. A few years, he was more like a .250 hitter. He could drive in runs, but was typically good for 80 to 90 RBIs, rarely more than 100, and never big 130+ RBI numbers.. And his home run totals ranged from high teens to mid 20s most seasons, good numbers, but not a true slugger's numbers. He was a terrific player, solid fundamentally, and had longevity, but I think he has gone down in people's memories as having been greater than he really was. Even with 21 seasons, he really didn't hit any of the typical HOF milestones--was well short of 500 HRs, was well short of 1500 RBIs and was a career .275 hitter.
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There was that whole 3,000 hits thing, you know.

And with 3,000+ hits and 400+ HRs, Ripken joins a club that only Yaz, Winfield, Aaron, Mays, Musial, Eddie Murray and Palmeiro* are a part of.

Not to mention, you have to understand the era Ripken peaked in, say, 1983-1992, had exactly one 50-home run hitter in that entire decade -- Cecil Fielder, twice. So for Ripken to average 25 HRs a year during that era is just as impressive as somebody who averages 30-35 now. It's not league-leading, but it's still impressive.

Plus, Ripken also revolutionized the profile of a shortstop, which until that time had been dominated by the likes of the Rabbit Maranvilles, Frankie Frisches, Phil Rizzutos, great-fielding, no-power types. Only Honus Wagner was more prolific a hitter at shortstop until Ripken (take Ernie Banks out of the discussion because he stopped playing SS in 1962) and there was nobody even close to Ripken's size to play that position until he came along. Now all the top shortstops are that size -- because Ripken paved the way.

[/ripken defender to the death]
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You went back and edited your post after I had responded.

I conceded that Ripkin was a very good player, who had longevity and redefined the shortstop position to pave the way for some of the good hitting shortstops today. Before him, the Mark Bellangers of the world were what most people looked for in a shortstop. But I stand by most of what I said. His status as an icon has made people think he was better than he really was.

He got to 3,000 hits and that is impressive, but it was the product of a 21-year career in which he never missed a game, not being a prolific hitter. The home run numbers you are so impressed by? Even by the standards of his era, he was not a home run hitter. Only finished in the top 10 in the AL twice (3rd once and 9th once) in a 21 year career. 25 HRs was not his typical year. Eight times he didn't even break 20 homers. In his prime he was usually between 20 and 25 HRs. (23 at age 27, 21 at age 28, 21 at age 29, 34 at age 30, 14 at age 31, 24 at age 32, 17 at age 33, etc). RBIs? Finished in the top 10 in the AL only 3 times in 21 seasons. Only broke 100 RBIs four times in 21 years, and barely broke the mark those seasons. Typical season he was an 80 to 90 RBI guy. Batting average? Career .276 hitter. Good average, but not an all-time great average. During some of his prime years, ages 26, 27, 28, 29, he batted .252, .264, .257 and .250 respectively.

I'm sorry, but his stats, and his overall contributions at the plate do not put him on the same plane as Yaz, Winfield, Aaron, Mays, Musial or Eddie Murray. Murray hit 70 + more HRs, drove in a ton more runs and had a higher batting average. Winfield had a higher batting average, more HRs and drove in way more runs. Winfield had 8 100+ RBI seasons, including five in a row. Yaz had a higher batting average, more HRs and significantly more runs driven in--in a more offensively challenged era. I won't even dignify the Aaron, Mays and Musial comparison. There is just no comparison. They are among the game's elite.

Ripkin probably deserves to be in the Hall of Fame for his status as an ambassador for the game and the streak. But in terms of performance, he is on the lowest run of hall of famers as far as I am concerned.
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blahblahblahblah

Still ended up with more than 3,000 hits and more than 400 HRs.
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blahblahblahblah. And you still haven't seen a movie you spent two weeks telling everyone sucked.

Why not just light your balls on fire. It will get you just as much attention as being a douchebag on this board.

DyePack · Jul 11, 2006

The Big Ragu said:

DyePack said:

The Big Ragu said:

buckweaver said:

The Big Ragu said:

Completely disagree about Nolan Ryan.

For the purposes of this discussion I will limit it to Hall of Famers. Guy who always kind of bugged me was Cal Ripkin, Jr. Don't get me wrong. He was a great player, a symbol of the game and he redefined the shortstop position, leading the way for taller, more powerful hitters like Tejada, Jeter and ARod. But the memory of him for people always seemed greater than his actual performance, in part due to his streak. He was usually around a .270 hitter. A few years, he was more like a .250 hitter. He could drive in runs, but was typically good for 80 to 90 RBIs, rarely more than 100, and never big 130+ RBI numbers.. And his home run totals ranged from high teens to mid 20s most seasons, good numbers, but not a true slugger's numbers. He was a terrific player, solid fundamentally, and had longevity, but I think he has gone down in people's memories as having been greater than he really was. Even with 21 seasons, he really didn't hit any of the typical HOF milestones--was well short of 500 HRs, was well short of 1500 RBIs and was a career .275 hitter.
Click to expand...

There was that whole 3,000 hits thing, you know.

And with 3,000+ hits and 400+ HRs, Ripken joins a club that only Yaz, Winfield, Aaron, Mays, Musial, Eddie Murray and Palmeiro* are a part of.

Not to mention, you have to understand the era Ripken peaked in, say, 1983-1992, had exactly one 50-home run hitter in that entire decade -- Cecil Fielder, twice. So for Ripken to average 25 HRs a year during that era is just as impressive as somebody who averages 30-35 now. It's not league-leading, but it's still impressive.

Plus, Ripken also revolutionized the profile of a shortstop, which until that time had been dominated by the likes of the Rabbit Maranvilles, Frankie Frisches, Phil Rizzutos, great-fielding, no-power types. Only Honus Wagner was more prolific a hitter at shortstop until Ripken (take Ernie Banks out of the discussion because he stopped playing SS in 1962) and there was nobody even close to Ripken's size to play that position until he came along. Now all the top shortstops are that size -- because Ripken paved the way.

[/ripken defender to the death]
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You went back and edited your post after I had responded.

I conceded that Ripkin was a very good player, who had longevity and redefined the shortstop position to pave the way for some of the good hitting shortstops today. Before him, the Mark Bellangers of the world were what most people looked for in a shortstop. But I stand by most of what I said. His status as an icon has made people think he was better than he really was.

He got to 3,000 hits and that is impressive, but it was the product of a 21-year career in which he never missed a game, not being a prolific hitter. The home run numbers you are so impressed by? Even by the standards of his era, he was not a home run hitter. Only finished in the top 10 in the AL twice (3rd once and 9th once) in a 21 year career. 25 HRs was not his typical year. Eight times he didn't even break 20 homers. In his prime he was usually between 20 and 25 HRs. (23 at age 27, 21 at age 28, 21 at age 29, 34 at age 30, 14 at age 31, 24 at age 32, 17 at age 33, etc). RBIs? Finished in the top 10 in the AL only 3 times in 21 seasons. Only broke 100 RBIs four times in 21 years, and barely broke the mark those seasons. Typical season he was an 80 to 90 RBI guy. Batting average? Career .276 hitter. Good average, but not an all-time great average. During some of his prime years, ages 26, 27, 28, 29, he batted .252, .264, .257 and .250 respectively.

I'm sorry, but his stats, and his overall contributions at the plate do not put him on the same plane as Yaz, Winfield, Aaron, Mays, Musial or Eddie Murray. Murray hit 70 + more HRs, drove in a ton more runs and had a higher batting average. Winfield had a higher batting average, more HRs and drove in way more runs. Winfield had 8 100+ RBI seasons, including five in a row. Yaz had a higher batting average, more HRs and significantly more runs driven in--in a more offensively challenged era. I won't even dignify the Aaron, Mays and Musial comparison. There is just no comparison. They are among the game's elite.

Ripkin probably deserves to be in the Hall of Fame for his status as an ambassador for the game and the streak. But in terms of performance, he is on the lowest run of hall of famers as far as I am concerned.
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blahblahblahblah

Still ended up with more than 3,000 hits and more than 400 HRs.
Click to expand...

blahblahblahblah. And you still haven't seen a movie you spent two weeks telling everyone sucked.

Why not just light your balls on fire. It will get you just as much attention as being a douchebag on this board.
Click to expand...

Worst non sequitur argument ever.

lantaur · Jul 11, 2006

Have to interject - it's RipkEn not RipkIN. How fucking hard is it to spell his name? It's not like he was never in the headlines or anything. Crimeny.

Buck · Jul 11, 2006

Mike Matheny: .637 OPS, .239 BA, .344 Slg., .293 OBP, 443 RBIs, 67 HRs, 353 runs scored

Herbert Anchovy · Jul 11, 2006

Overrated said:

That Pat Swilling deal you mentioned also cost the Lions Willie Roaf (he might've helped Â :) and an assload of karma by un-retiring Schmidt's #56. Did he make a single play during his short, shitty Lion career? This thread is starting to make me angrier than the Nolan Ryan idiots. Cal Ripken is obviously the most overrated baseball player.
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I forgot it was a trade. Yeah, and it was contingent on Swilling getting Schmidt's old No. 56, which the latter was pretty good about. So many fucked up things happened to the Lions. It's mind-blowing. Utley, Andolsek's death, Swilling going to Detroit, having his dad die and then going through the worst season of his career (and never making the Pro Bowl again). Barry Sanders going 13-0 rushing in a playoff game, losing another playoff game 58-37, Scott Mitchell, Reggie Brown's near paralysis on the same Silverdome turf, Ron Rice suffering a career-ending neck injury, Stephen Boyd suffering a career-ending neck injury, fan favorite Spielman leaving for Buffalo and retiring with a severe neck injury. This is just in the '90s -- pre-Bobby Ross walking out and saying the team was essentially a bunch of quitters, pre-Millen, pre-Morninhweg, pre-Harrington. It's unbelievable. The franchise has been poisoned for almost 15 years, in ways few other organizations have ever been. Fuck the Red Sox and what they whine about having gone through. And the team is still broken.

lantaur · Jul 11, 2006

I can understand the Ryan comments to an extent: He was never a big winner and most people are fascinated by fireballers.

Anyway, from baseball reference:

Ryan:
Black Ink: Pitching - 84 (10) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 251 (18) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 55.0 (27) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 257.5 (8) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Maddux:
Black Ink: Pitching - 83 (11) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 320 (6) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 66.0 (9) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 241.5 (13) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Sutton (comparing him to Ryan is laughable, in my opinion):
Black Ink: Pitching - 8 (278) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 240 (23) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 58.0 (19) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 149.0 (42) (Likely HOFer > 100)

PopeDirkBenedict · Jul 11, 2006

BitterYoungHack said:

PopeDirkBenedict said:

Judging peaks only by strikeouts lacks any kind of context and is meaningless. It's like looking at how many shots a basketball player made without looking at how many he took.

OK, I need to get to bed. I'm not arguing that Ryan wasn't very good. If given the choice between Nolan Ryan and all but 25 or so pitchers in baseball history, I take Ryan. I'm not saying Ryan is the equivalent of Mike Hampton or anything outrageous like that. But the idea that Ryan is a 99-percent HOF vote or that he is one of the top five pitchers simply isn't supported by the record. He simply didn't have the consistent dominance of the greatest pitchers ever. He was a very consistent pitcher who was a freak of natureÂ -- unlike almost every other power pitcher in history, he didn't lose his fastball as he aged. That is enough to get you into the Hall, but because fans put Ryan in that very top echelon (which should be reserved for the Roger Clemens and Walter Johnsons of the world), he is overrated.
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I'm sorry but give me Nolan Ryan ANY DAY OF THE WEEK and fourteen times on Sunday over Clemens, the epitome of the six-inning pitcher even before he moved to the NL.

And when someone finally decided to fight back against Nolan, he grabbed Ventura and punched him about 17 times on the head. Unlike clemens, who couldn't even look Mr. Peaceful Happy Feeling, Mike Piazza, in the eye after he chucked the bat at him and instead pretended to ask the umpire for another ball. That would have given him one.
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Too bad Rajah averages more innings per start than Nolan. Mr Ryan: 6.97 (I took out his Angels years when he was also used as a reliever), Mr. Clemens: 7.01. I realize that difference is statistically insignificant, but it renders that argument moot.

As an aside, I despise Clemens almost as much as I hate this bout of insomnia tonight. But he is rightfully the best pitcher since WWII.

The Big Ragu · Jul 11, 2006

DyePack said:

Worst non sequitur argument ever.
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I'll make it simple, you cheese-brained dickhead. I haven't engaged you on the board in months without you stalking me and starting shit with me first. I stay away from you. I don't look to debate you or converse with you. Only a real asshole with the social skills of a psychopath would stalk someone from thread to thread trying to get a rise out of them. Why not get a life, fucktard? I promise not to talk to you or respond to you, EVER. Do you have it in you to reciprocate, or is your whole goal in life to troll message boards and get your sociopathic attention fix by antagonizing people? As dozens of others will attest, it isn't just me. You go out of your way to be a dick to several dozen people here. Someone with a life, would take a look in the mirror and say, "Hey, maybe I have some serious interpersonal issues."

Asschunk.

Bubbler · Jul 11, 2006

I like Ryan, I like Clemens. I might take Steve Carlton over either.

PopeDirkBenedict · Jul 11, 2006

lantaur said:

I can understand the Ryan comments to an extent: He was never a big winner and most people are fascinated by fireballers.

Anyway, from baseball reference:

Ryan:
Black Ink: Pitching - 84 (10) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 251 (18) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 55.0 (27) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 257.5 (8) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Maddux:
Black Ink: Pitching - 83 (11) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 320 (6) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 66.0 (9) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 241.5 (13) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Sutton (comparing him to Ryan is laughable, in my opinion):
Black Ink: Pitching - 8 (278) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 240 (23) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 58.0 (19) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 149.0 (42) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Click to expand...

The HOF Monitor is a nice tool, but is only relevant to the discussion because it helps explain why people overrate Ryan. The Monitor uses statistical benchmarks, without context, to show how likely a player is to be voted into the Hall of Fame. For example, it doesn't factor walks, losses or any other negative stat into the equation and only looks for splashy numbers, so of course Ryan will dominate that. However, the HOF standards which measure worthiness and use ratios rather than raw numbers, go Maddux, Sutton, Ryan. The Gray Ink standards, which measure how often you were in the top 10 in particular categories in a season, show a narrow gap between Ryan and Sutton with Maddux far-outpacing them. Ryan does well in the Black Ink standards, which only measure being No. 1 in the league, on the basis of being the leader in K's and H/IP for many years.

Buck · Jul 11, 2006

zeke12 said:

Thanks for sharing that, Buck.
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I just like to keep the discussion moving forward.

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