Most overrated baseball player of all time

You're still looking at 400 more hits and 500 more runs for Mr. Smith.

 

The answer to the Ozzie argument against Mazeroski being overrated (I don't think he is, but I don't think he belongs in the HOF) is that Ozzie is also overrated.

 

He also went to bat 1,641 more times than Mazeroski did. If you divide 444 hits by those 1,641 at-bats, you get a .270 average. Big whoop.

Mazeroski also hit one of baseball's all-time clutch home runs. He'll live forever for that moment, if nothing else.

But Guy has it right. If you say one is overrated, you have to say the other is too.

 

Mazeroski's 1706 double plays turned is 138 more than the American League record. That's 138 more outs he manufactured than the absolute best from the AL. That's an astounding difference.
Maz led the league in DPs turned eight times. Nobody other second baseman ever did it more than five.
The difference between Mazeroski as a fielder and the next-best second baseman is greater than the difference between Ozzie Smith and the next-best shortstop.
Go ahead, try and argue that.
Habit? BYA, I would have expected more from you ...

 

Ozzie Smith helped define his era. Mazeroski did not. Ozzie had range not seen before or since. Ozzie's lifetime batting average is deceptive. He regularly had seasons of .210 and .220 with the Padres. By the middle of his career, he was a consistent .280-.300 hitter. Plus, of course, you disingenously leave out Ozzie's gargantuan advantage in stolen bases, which more than counters Maz's gargantuan lead in homers.

And best fielding second baseman? Putting someone in the Hall of Fame for that would be similar to putting Manny Mota in the Hall of Fame for pinch hitting or Herb Washington in the Hall of Fame for pinch-running. Shortstop and third base see many more balls (and many more hard-hit ones). Maz should have a better fielding percentage, being a second baseman.

Bill Mazeroski does have the distinction of causing the death of a process for getting into the Hall of Fame. That may be what he could be Hall of Fame-worthy for, come to think of it.

Maz in Hall of Fame = fraud.

 

Another one who shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame is turn-of-the-century catcher Roger Breshanan. Bill James in his book "The Politics of Glory" flat out says he does not belong in Cooperstown.

 

Disagree here. In six of his last 11 years, Smith hit at least .280, and only once (1987) did he hit .300. In the first seven seasons (three of which came in St. Louis), he hit no better than .258. And this was in the start of what many believe to be the juiced era, where all of the offensive numbers picked up from what used to be the norm.

OK, so Ozzie helped define his era. So did Jose Canseco, you want him in the HOF?

As for Ozzie's defense, he finished with a career fielding percentage of .978. Cal Ripken topped that with his .979 while Allan Trammell (.977), Barry Larkin (.975) and Jay Bell (.975) came close. If he was that superior defensively, he probably should have had a better fielding percentage, but he didn't.

Besides, for anyone to call Maz a fraud when he was the best argument for Ozzie's place in Cooperstown is laughable.

 

Yeah, but he made a couple of sweet picks. And one of them was a nasty in-between hop that cinched the award.
One thing people forget about that year is the runner-up was John Olerud's helmet.

 

I think part of the problem here is you had to see both of these guys regularly to truly appreciate the impact their defensive play had on the game and a heck of a lot more people in these discussions saw Smith play but never saw Mazeroski.

Listen to some of the old-timers talk about Mazeroski and how much better he was than his peers in the middle infield. Sometimes we just get so caught up in numbers that we forget what people actually saw when they watched the games.

You can say Smith was a unique athlete for his time, but I'm not sure he revolutionized the position. A lot more teams go for Cal Ripken, Jr. types than Ozzie Smith types. Look at the elite shortstops since Smith. How many were defense-first guys? Big-time hitters like Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada and A-Rod before he slid over to third have been the dominant shortstops in recent years.

Try finding the defense-first shortstops now and you are often running into the Jack Wilson's of the world (not that he could carry Ozzie Smith's jock, but...). And Wilson is being nudged to the bench lately by Freddy Sanchez so the Pirates can get a little more pop in the lineup.

I'm not sure Smith or Mazeroski really belongs in the Hall of Fame. Guys like that turn it into the Hall of Really Good. Kinda like Gary Carter. Yeah, he was one of the top 2 or 3 catchers of his era. But it was a really crappy run of catchers.

But, I don't see how Ozzie has that much of a case over Maz.

 

Why should one of the best second basemen of all time not have a place in the Hall of Fame? There's all kinds of guys who made it into the hall despite being, shall we say, less than stellar in the field, but does anyone ever question whether Reggie Jackson (career fielding percentage - .967) or Lou Brock (.959) really belong there? Of course not. Both men were elected in their first year of eligibility and they deserved it.

But defence and preventing runners from getting on base is just as important as is creating offence and trying to get around the bases. And second base is as important a defensive position as any other spot in the infield.

It's arguable that perhaps not as many balls will be hit to a second baseman, but there's a lot more to playing the position than simply snaring a grounder. A second baseman must have just as much range as a shortstop, if not more, considering the hole created on the right side of the infield when a runner is being held close to first base. They also have to be able to make a quick pivot move in order to finish a double play at first base, something a shortstop rarely if ever has to do considering they're usually facing first when they approach the bag at second.

Yes, I'm a former second baseman.

Now then, Bill Mazeroski. Yes, he was a weak hitter. His career on-base percentage is only .299 and he stole fewer bases than Ozzie Smith hit home runs. But his defence was excellent, so superb that it far outweighed his offensive liability. Sorta like Lou Brock's bat and legs and Reggie's bat made up for the balls they either dropped or threw away.

According to Total Baseball, in major league history, only Nap Lajoie saved more runs than his bat cost his team. Maz led the league in putouts five times, in assists nine times and in double plays eight times in a row. The latter two stats are major league records for any fielding position. He also holds the MLB records among second basemen for most double plays in one season and in a career.

I suppose it's true that someone with a career fielding percentage of .983 over 17 seasons and 2,100 games could have done better than that, as dooley suggests. After all, Ryne Sandberg's all-time record for second basemen is .989. But you should factor in that Maz handled 11,874 chances during his career while Ryno had 10,660 - a difference of 1,214. All of a sudden those six percentage points don't seem like such a big difference.

Finally, there's this:



The only Game 7 walk-off home run in the history of major league baseball. Enjoy Cooperstown, Maz, you more than earned your spot there.

 

After 24 pages of this, I still say Gary Carter is the only person mentioned here who actually is overrated.

 

Maz vs. Smith boils down to this: Maz was on the writer's ballot for 15 years and never got more than 45 percent or so of the vote. When he did get in via the Veterans Committee, it was such an egregious example of cronyism that the whole governing body was overhauled to the point where it's quite possible no one will ever get in again via the Vets Committee.

Ozzie got in as a slam-dunk first ballot inductee.

Go ahead, try and argue that, Twobit.

As for the habit line, you misinterpreted it, not that that surprises me in the least. I was saying that Gold Gloves should not be used as a standard of one's HOF worthiness because the award often turns into an annual coronation for a one-time great fielder. I never said Maz was an example of this. Get it straight.