NBA '08 Playoff Thread

No way in hell? How about his pass in Game 5 of the ECF Finals in 1987? Isiah was really good. I just don't see anyway he was as good as Kobe, and to say no way in hell is ridiculous. He willed his team to win...except that 25-point quarter in the 1988 Finals resulted in a loss. And in 1984 when he scored all those points in the last minute against the Knicks in Game 5, he willed his team to a...loss.

I know he was severely hurt in 1988. But if you're talking injuries, the Pistons probably wouldn't have won in 1989 but Magic and Scott blew out their hamstrings. And from 1991 on, the Pistons were a nonfactor in the league.

Again, Kobe's won three titles. Willing them to win? How about Game 7 of the 2000 WCF Finals. Shaq was an absolute no-show for three and a half quarters. Game 4 of the Finals that year. Kobe, playing on a severely sprained ankle (yes, he can do that too), carries the Lakers to a crucial Game 4 win in OT, after Shaq fouled out. 2001 WCF Finals, Kobe explodes on the road in the first two games against the Spurs, sparking the series rout. Game 7 in 2002 against the Kings. And on and on and on. It wasn't Shaq with the ball in the last five minutes of those games.

And this year he willed his team to the best record in the toughest conference in years, and then to the Finals. He's 3-2 in the Finals. So was Larry Bird. Jerry West lost EIGHT Finals. Did he not have a will?

 

The man scored 81 points in an NBA game with 20-foot jumpers. I don't care how lackadaisical Toronto was that night; most of the NBA can't do that in an empty arena.

 

Yeah, he scored 25 points in a quarter with a fractured ankle and the only reason his team had a chance to win -- if you remember they lost on free throws by Jabbar -- was him.

He didn't play with anyone even close to as good or dominant as Shaq -- he never was the second fiddle on his team and Kobe's three titles, Kobe was Scottie Pippen on those title teams and he is ringless without Shaq and even you know this.

Zeke willed his team to two titles he made his teammates better -- Kobe does not make his teammates better, he usually pisses them off because he wants to shoot it a million times.

And oh my, let's see -- this is during the days when he had, oh I don't know a couple of guys named Magic and Bird to have to try and beat every year and after 1991, when his career began to decline -- there was this guy named Michael Jordan or something that burst onto the scene and finally had a supporting cast as well.

Kobe Bryant has played almost his entire career in an NBA devoid of anyone even close to the level of superstar status and as magical as Bird, Magic and Jordan in their primes --- while Zeke had to beat all three of them just about every year of his career to get to the title -- and still managed to win two titles and got to another one -- and they probably win that one if he doesn't fracture his ankle in Game 6.

I'll say it again, there is no way in HELL you can make an argument that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Isiah Thomas.

He was an all-time great and played in an era that had three of the greatest players in team sports in their primes or in Jordan's case heading into his prime.

 

Ok, ok, you put hell in all caps. You've convinced me.

 

Well it was either that -- or the fact that you now realize how silly your "the Pistons did nothing after 1991" remark was (um, neither did anyone else because of Jordan's Bulls) or the fact that you realize being second fiddle on a title team in an era that was really devoid of the kind of star power that existed in the mid to late 1980's and early 1990's is not nearly as special as leading a team to two titles -- and having to beat Bird, Jordan and Magic to do it.

 

There's a lot of great players there, but 1-8 are the only ones I can definitively give you. A few others (Malone, Shaq, Oscar, Isiah) where a case might arguably be made, but beyond that none of those guys had careers equalling Kobe's.

Explain, for example, how your No. 9, Jerry West, is better than Kobe? He won only one ring, he never won any MVPs, and his career stat totals will be far below Kobe's when all is said and done.

Same with your No. 10, Baylor--never won a championship (even though he played with West and Chamberlain), never won an MVP, how was he better than Kobe?

Kobe has a bit of a Barry Bonds thing going on where people want to discount his historical legacy because they don't like him personally. Truth is he may very well be one of the 10 greatest players ever already, and he appears to still have quite a few years left in the tank.

 

Stoney, if you had seen West and/or Baylor play, you'd know both were better than Kobe.

 

Well, he didn't beat Magic in 1989. For one game he did. He did, though, manage to beat a backcourt of a decomposing Michael Cooper, David Rivers and Tony Campbell (second greatest Timberwolf ever, but not Magic Johnson). And if you want to say he should have won in 1988, you have to mention the title he did win with the help of the Lakers injuries.

As for the rest of his career:
1982: no playoffs.
1983: no playoffs.
1984: lost to Knicks
1985: Lost to Celtics
1986: Lost to Hawks
87: Lost to Celtics
88: Lost to Lakers
89-90: titles
91: Bulls
92: Knicks
93: No playoffs
94: No playoffs (give credit to Jordan for this too. Isiah was so baffled by Jordan's baseball performance he couldn't concentrate and willed the Pistons to 20 wins)

So Bird stopped him twice, Jordan once, Magic once. Four missed playoffs, despite his great will. And losses to the immortal Knicks (twice), and Hawks.

I'm not saying he wasn't a great great player and I loved watching him play. But the absurdity of saying he is far and away better than Kobe, and that there's no way to argue otherwise, is baffling. It's Isiah. He wasn't Jordan, he wasn't Magic, he wasn't Bird. The 80s was the Golden Era for the League. But the Lakers have had to go through the greatest power forward in the history of the game, and Kobe's 4-1 against Duncan in his last five meetings.

 

West, I know. Baylor, I have a little more trouble with.

 

This is a fun topic and I'm not going to pick it apart too much because it's not easy to come off with the top 22 players of all-time off the top of your head, but no Bill Russell? Scottie Pippen and David Robinson were greater players than Bill Russell?

 

That's what I said Boobie. I think it was just an oversight. I loathe everything green, and would like to urinate on some old Red on Roundball tapes if I could find some, but I definitely recognize Russell's greatness. If you go to si.com/vault, read Deford's story on him, from maybe 1999.