NBA '08 Playoff Thread

Well, your eyes and memory might make that case, but I'm not sure how you do it objectively. The two played on the same team (along with Wilt Chamberlain for a few years) so neither can blame lack of supporting talent for the lack of rings. Neither ever won an MVP. And neither have career stats to compare with where Kobe's will eventually be.

 

Jerry West is the logo-man isn't he?

LOL

No, I already said that Kobe is probably somewhere between 10 and 20 -- and I'd put him above Jerry West.

However, I disagree about Elgin Baylor, who averaged 25 and 15 as a rookie, had a season where he averaged 38 points per game (highest average by anyone not named Chamberlain) and averaged 19.8 rebounds per game one season, the fifth best average ever and the reason he never won a title was this pesky team from Boston and because after 1962-63 he was never really fully healthy. More importantly, he didn't play with Chamberlain until after three years after his major knee surgery and by then he was a shell of his former self.

He was Charles Barkley 20 years before anyone had ever heard of Barkley and I'd say you could make a sound argument that he was a better player than Kobe.

And I am a Kobe fan, I just don't think he is in that elite top 10 or 12 category yet and might not get there.

 

Oh my God -- how the hell I did I forget Russell? I thought he was the first or second name on the list.

A complete oversight -- no question he is on that list -- so now Kobe is 23!!!! ;D

 

That would assume you hadn't seen the error of your ways in some of the first 22.

 

It's always dangerous to make this kind of evaluation right after a big game or series. Never as good as you look when you win or as bad as you look when you lose, and all that. Kobe, for instance, is taking way too hard a hit here on the basis of one series. The Celtics shut him down, no question, but Kobe's had more than his share of great, clutch performances. A month ago he led the Lakers back from down 20 late in the third to beat the defending champions, for chrissake. Before anybody starts calling him overrated, tell me when in the last decade you've seen any team slow him down to this degree, before or after Shaq. I think the answer is never.

As for that list of 22, c'mon. Patrick Ewing? Earl Monroe? In fact, delete from 15 on down, because those guys have no argument. I'd also remove Isiah and West, great players who didn't have nearly as varied an offensive game as Kobe, were not the defenders that Kobe is, and didn't win as many championships as Kobe has. That leaves about 13 guys. You can debate where Kobe ranks in that group (I'd put him ahead of Dr. J, for instance), but there's no question that he deserves a spot among them.

 

Is Duncan greater than Karl Malone? Moses Malone? Charles Barkley?

And let's examine your four missed playoffs --

In 1994 he was finished -- he was injured much of the year and tore his ACL and missed 25 games, which is like about a 1/3 of the season.

In 1993 it was the first year after the Chuck Daly era and by that point much of the Bad Boys were aging and the team was falling apart.

In 1982 he joined a team that had 21 wins before he arrived and led them to 39 wins.

The 1992 team that lost to the Knicks -- yeah, that's right they had all-timer whose number one sin was he played in the era of Jordan, Bird and Magic -- and Patrick Ewing -- and that 1992 was probably the best team Ewing played on and they likely would have beaten the Bulls -- took them to seven -- had Ewing not sprained his ankle and played on one leg for the last four games of it.

And further -- in 2005 the Lakers missed the playoffs for like the first time in forever -- what is significant about that season -- oh yeah, Shaq left Kobe and went to the Heat. The next year the Lakers were one and done and the Heat won it all.......



The 1989 Lakers team with Magic was no match for Detroit and when he went down in game 2 it ensured a sweep as opposed to a win in six by the Pistons.

More importantly in 1989 Isiah had to beat JORDAN and Bird just to get to the finals.

There is simply no reasonable argument in comparing the road to the NBA title now versus what it was during Thomas's career, particularly in the East where he had the Celtics led by Bird and Knicks led by Ewing and then get past Magic Johnson and James Worthy or Clyde Drexler to win the title.

Kobe Bryant is a great player -- he is not better than Isiah Thomas. He doesn't have the heart Thomas had, he doesn't make his teammates better the way Thomas did.

 

By the way -- my list was 22 names in no particular order --

If I were to do it and try to rank them 1 to 20.......

1.) Wilt
2.) Jordan
3.) Magic
4.) Russell
5.) Oscar Robertson
6.) Shaq
7.) Hakeem
8.) Bird
9.) Isiah Thomas
10.) Karl Malone
11.) Ewing
12.) Duncan
13.) Barkley
14.) Dr. J
15.) This is where might put Kobe -- right about here. I could make arguments for Elgin Baylor and if the Celtics repeat perhaps Garnett and at some point I think Lebron will jump ahead of him. So at worst he is 18 -- I think by the time he is done he might be closer to 10.

 

Although I'd point out that Elgin's 38 ppg occurred during that infamous 1962 season, which had screwy statistics galore: Wilt averaged over 50 ppg and scored 100 in a game that season; both Wilt and Russell averaged around 25 rpg; and there were an amazing number of guys who got 30 plus ppg or 15 plus rpg.

There's about a three-year-period in the NBA from around 61-63 where I'm instantly suspicious of its stats, sort of like the steroid era hitting statistics in baseball. Something screwy was going on during that era: every team was averaging somewhere close to 120 ppg, taking a ridiculous number of shots per game, and it appears playing little defense. And, not coincidentally, a shitload of bizarre scoring and rebounding stats come from that three or four year period--far more than any other comparable period in NBA history.

And, guess what, 61-63 would also be the only three years that Elgin Baylor averaged over 30 ppg.

 

Dear Zags: Two more, oops, how'd I forget him? for your list. Moses Malone and John Havlicek. At the risk of irritating the younger persons on this board, I'm going to say that upon reflection rather than working this afternoon, the closest historical equivalent I have for Bryant is Rick Barry. That's not a knock by the way. Barry was an unbelievable player. All fans hated him, but I lived in the Bay Area in the 1993-1974 season, and I changed my mind on seeing how good he was.
Kobe Bryant is a terrific player, surefire Hall of Famer, and all that. But to say he's one of the top 20 in history is only possible in this, our history-hating nation. It's like saying Brad Pitt is as big a movie star as Clark Gable. Fine actor, big star, but no Clark Gable.

 

I think Isiah is vastly underated as well but I think Ewing and Malone are way to high on that list and I would take Kobe over those two.
Kobe would be in the 10 to 15 range on my list.

 

Yes, forgot about Moses.

Havlicek and Barry -- I thought about both but wasn't sure how good either was with respect to the rest of the list. They both had great stats, so they are clearly in the discussion -- are they better than Kobe?

 

The 1989 team was no match for the Pistons? They led in the fourth quarter of the final three games. Magic didn't play in any of those games. Neither did Scott. Think he might have made a difference? That's the same Lakers team that was the defending champs, and was 11-0 entering the playoffs.

Duncan is better than Malone and Barkley. Moses was a center. I'd say Duncan was better anyway.

In 1992, Ewing sprained his ankle in the fourth quarter of Game 6 of that series. The Knicks won that game, but lost Game 7.

I don't understand the obsession with the "road" to the championship. The competition was fiercer then. So does that mean no player who played after 1991 is better than those who played in the 80s? Why is that just limited to denigrating Kobe? Doesn't have the heart? Again, how do you measure that? Both played hurt in finals. Both performed admirably. Kobe just played half a year with a broken pinky. Doesn't make his teammates better? Ah, that old argument. He didn't make Brian Shaw, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Kwame Brown, or Smush Parker better at all. Or Shaq for that matter. Christ, Kwame is a third-stringer for the Grizzlies now and Smush was out of the league for most of the last year. Kobe somehow took a team with those guys starting to the playoffs, twice.