NBA Playoffs Thread

What makes you think Wade could put up a game like that? Whatever Lebron is or isn't he rebounds and passes the ball a lot better than wade.

 

Since I'm the one who said LeBron isn't capable of dominating like Magic could in a low-scoring game, I should step in here and defend Shockey, who's taking the brunt of the debate here.

Can LeBron put up 14 assists in a game? Of course. His career high is actually 15. Can he grab 13 boards a game. Of course. Can he put up a game of 30 points, 10 rebounds and 10 assists. Yeah. Can he put up 50, 10 and 9? Yeah. Like he did against the Knicks.

My point, though, is that he is at his absolute best, his most dominant, when he is scoring. That's not a criticism. It's the same thing with Kobe, with Jordan. They demoralize teams with their scoring. Their dominant games are scoring. Even with LeBron, who is capable of triple doubles, his most dominant performances have been when he's an explosive scorer, not when he's playing an all-around game. That's the difference between Magic and there's nothing wrong with it. In the same way, Magic's most dominant games weren't when he scored 40 - he did that in back to back games against Phoenix in the 1990 playoffs and they lost both. He did it in Game 2 against Golden State in 1991 and they lost. He could do it occasionally, just like occasionally LeBron can put together a triple-double.

But Magic was at his best when he controlled the pace, when he racked up 18 points, and 15, 16 assists, a dozen rebounds. Magic's scoring rarely demoralized teams, with obvious exceptions and obviously post 1987 he started concentrating more on his scoring. But again, he was dominant - at his best - when scoring 23 and 13 assists. LeBron at his finest isn't having a game like that. He's scoring 30, 35 plus, killing teams in the lane, knocking down dagger threes.

And the type of assists do matter. Many of LeBron's in his high-assist games come on kickouts to open shooters, who are open because he can draw in the defense. Those are great. But Magic's were finding guys through small openings down low and of course they were on the break, which demoralized the opposition. LeBron's assists aren't empty numbers, but there's a difference between an assist that comes from a guy who makes a 23 footer, and one that comes when the guy puts the ball on a platter for a guy 2 feet from the hoop. That's why Magic could have an eight point game and still be the dominant guy on the court because he was so crucial to what his four teammates were doing.

LeBron can put up big assist and big rebound numbers. Doesn't mean those are games have the same impact for his team as when he's scoring more. If LeBron takes a stranglehold of this series tonight, it's not going to be because he goes for 19, 12 and 8 and plays great defense.

Magic won a Finals MVP in a series where he was fifth-leading scorer on the team (you could argue the '82 Finals MVP could have gone to someone else). But the point is, that's how Magic could control a game despite not being a dominant scorer. If LeBron's the fifth-leading scorer on the Heat...somehow I doubt they're winning or he's taking MVP honors. In fact there's no one else in basketball history who could pull it off. But Magic played with Kareem and Nixon and Wilkes! Yeah, but if LeBron played with those guys he wouldn't be at his best in the Magic role, and that's okay.

I don't see why this is something to get indignant about. It's not even really a criticism, just a counterpoint to those who would describe him as more Magic than Jordan (as I've written elsewhere, LeBron is obviously superior in other ways - scoring, certainly defense). I've said this before and it's like Creosote said, the comparisons get old because I think we do fail then to appreciate what we have. Instead we're too concerned with looking at what's been in the past. So when Kobe scores 81, some people can't appreciate it without saying, "YEah, but Jordan never would have only taken 3 shots in an elimination game!" LeBron is amazing in so many ways. And I do appreciate what he does bring to the game.

So I get the comparison fatigue. At the same time, when Magic and LeBron's name are brought together, I can't help but write and point out a few differences.

 

Just pointing out that he's not only capable of producing triple-doubles, he's prolific at producing them. Heck, and you are saying he can never do it in the playoffs. Well, he almost did in game four in a game he's getting roundly blasted for. One more basket, one more rebound and a few assists and he would have been there.

So what's with this notion that he'll "Never" do it in a big game. He almost did it in what we all agree was a sub-par performance for him.

 

You're losing sight of where this debate started, Brian. Here is the initial hypothetical:

So, first off, the stats are quite a bit higher than your basic triple-double. Beyond that, there is a difference between getting a triple-double and being "dominant" in a Finals game. I'm saying he lacks the makeup to be dominant, and now that someone else on his team is willing to do the heavy lifting he is even less interested in taking charge.

 

And my counter point is that while he is, at heart, a scorer first, he's on a team where he does not necessarily always have to be THE scorer. I would say that not looking to be the scorer in this series is a wise move, given his matchup vs. Wade's matchup and what they need out of Bosh in terms of making Dirk defend and/or putting pressure on Chandler to avoid fouls with Haywood out of the lineup.

Look, it's the price of playing with another great player. In the big picture, he's doing some of what Phil and Shaq tried to get Kobe to do with mixed results. Jordan was always the scorer on his Bulls teams because, as good as Pippin was, that really wasn't his game. He'd get 20 points and almost every single basket would be in the flow of the offense, in transition, etc., by aggressive cuts and not so much from him "creating." So Jordan was going to be the guy all the time.

 

how many times do ya think james has had 16 rebounds and 10 assists in the same game with fewer than 10 points? i understand he's capable of triple-doubles... my point has been when he pulls a double in rebounds and assists he's never scored fewer than 10, too. we're going 'round in circles on a hypothetical that has NEVER occurred in reality. and i have no problem asserting that if james scores fewer than 10 in a game he will NOT have 'dominated.' that's all.

the heat obviously can win when he scores fewer than 10. but if/when they ever do i'll be anything that james will not have been their most 'dominant' players.

sheesh. we've gone in circles. i need a breather... i'll just end with this: i fully anticipate james will have a 'dominant-type' linescore tonight. but not if he scores fewer than 10 points. all i'm sayin'... what's so controversial?

 

'capable' doesn't mean squat. next time he scores less than 10 but has double digits in boards and assists in a playoff game give me a shout. nothing 'ignorant' about any of this...

 

Maybe LeBron is distracted by a fellow NBA player sticking it to his girlfriend: http://www.twackle.com/articles/RUMOR144-Circulating-Regarding-LeBron-James--Girlfriend---NBA

 

Apparently the 4th quarter of playoff games isn't the only time LeBron can't finish strong.

 

Well, I'll just say this. The Heat were on the road in the NBA finals and built a large fourth quarter lead without James scoring, but with him contributing good numbers in rebounds and assists. Then he, and the team, failed down the stretch.

But he was effective for about 40 minutes as a non-scoring presence on the floor, I thought. I never felt the Heat were hurting for him taking on a secondary scoring role, not until Dallas made their late run and he didn't step up his game to answer.

 

Wade was every bit as disinterested and bad in the conference finals as James has been in the Final.

 

Wait a minute -

1. If you are the so-called best player in the game and an all-time great - you aint dominating shit when you take one shot in the fourth quarter and finish with eight points regardless of how many assists and rebounds you have particularly when your SCORING as either a first or second option is what is supposedly your team's advantage over the other team, which has only one legitimate top ten scoring option.

It doesn't work that way - Lebron James needs to get to the hoop and get to the foul line when the game is in crunch time. And at 6-8 he should also be able to shoot over most guys guarding him on the perimeter.

There is no reason he shouldn't be scoring 20 in every game against Dallas other than he is playing soft, scared and like he's afraid of the moment.

And that is what separates the good from the greats and the greats from the all-timers.

The all-timers, they live for the moments and shine in them.

The greats, they dominate games for the first 42 minutes then defer at crunch time