Northwestern football players seek to join union

The Big Ragu · Jan 31, 2014

RonClements said:

The Big Ragu said:

Why do we need anyone to price fix an "annual stipend - not to exceed [/make up your number]?

The schools know what the kids are worth to them in profit. They kids know they are worth something. If they sit down and negotiate freely, whatever they come up with between themselves is something each side can live with and still benefit from the arrangement.

It's not my place as an outsider to try to price fix that market. Just as I wouldn't want someone else sticking their nose in my business and undermining whatever leverage I have in a negotiation for something.
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Not to exceed a certain amount to keep things within Title IX, otherwise the women's soccer team is going to complain that it receives, say, $100 a year per player while the football players get, let's say, $10,000. You have to actually think within reason here about something that could actually work, instead of just saying, this team generates X-amount of dollars, so the players should get a cut. Title IX is a tricky thing and the NCAA will not open itself up to litigation by ignoring it.
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Same way I complain that I earned $X last year, when a guy I know earned $XXXXXX, I guess.

I'm not saying "the team generates X-amount of dollars, so the players should get a cut." It's not my business to determine what anyone "should get." I don't want to arbitrarily price fix everything.

ALL players -- men and women -- can be free to negotiate what makes best sense for themselves, which makes Title IX a non-factor. If you have any leverage (and I would guess your leverage depends on how profitable the sport you play is for the university), you are likely to be more successful in negotiations to share in those profits. If you don't have leverage, you are probably not going to get very far if you try to have that conversation.

We all deal with that reality every day. Why should this be any different, and why should you (or anyone else) unilaterally get to stick your nose in and skew the playing field between the universities and the athletes?

cranberry · Jan 31, 2014

RonClements said:

Not to exceed a certain amount to keep things within Title IX, otherwise the women's soccer team is going to complain that it receives, say, $100 a year per player while the football players get, let's say, $10,000. You have to actually think within reason here about something that could actually work, instead of just saying, this team generates X-amount of dollars, so the players should get a cut. Title IX is a tricky thing and the NCAA will not open itself up to litigation by ignoring it.
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The women's soccer team, unless it generates revenue, has no reason to seek employee status, which is all that's going on in this situation with the Northwestern football and basketball players.

Again, Title IX has zero to do with whether these players are employees under the National Labor Relations Act. Nada. The NLRB may decide against the players seeking recognition but it won't be because declaring them employees would raise questions relative to Title IX.

So the fretting over potential Title IX implications is a red herring. I imagine IF they were to eventually prevail (and we're talking years), employees could cease to be considered "student athletes" participating in "an education program or activity" for Title IX purposes.

Baron Scicluna · Jan 31, 2014

The $3,000 as a stipend is the figure that is usually used because that's roughly the figure between what a scholarship is and the actual calculated cost of attendance. The $3K is usually meant for outside expenses, like laundry and entertainment, plus transportation.

RonClements · Jan 31, 2014

Baron Scicluna said:

The $3,000 as a stipend is the figure that is usually used because that's roughly the figure between what a scholarship is and the actual calculated cost of attendance. The $3K is usually meant for outside expenses, like laundry and entertainment, plus transportation.
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Thanks, Baron. I didn't exactly pull that number out of my ass, as some would have thought.

LongTimeListener · Jan 31, 2014

And definitely giving kids $3,000 will keep the boosters at bay. Those players will be rolling in it!

cranberry · Jan 31, 2014

RonClements said:

Baron Scicluna said:

The $3,000 as a stipend is the figure that is usually used because that's roughly the figure between what a scholarship is and the actual calculated cost of attendance. The $3K is usually meant for outside expenses, like laundry and entertainment, plus transportation.
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Thanks, Baron. I didn't exactly pull that number out of my ass, as some would have thought.
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Yet it still has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The players are seeking employee status and the right to organize, which will be determined by the NLRB based on precedent and tests that have been developed for such instances under the National Labor Relations Act. Nobody gives a crap what you or anybody else thinks they should be compensated. If they prevail, they will negotiate their compensation.

Big Circus · Jan 31, 2014

LanceyHoward said:

As a tuition payer at UVA it makes great sense to me to shut down that athletic department.
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As a UVA grad and fan, I agree. Year in and year out, the Wahoos are the greatest disappointment in my life.

cranberry · Jan 31, 2014

Here's a solid explanation of the issues involved:

http://deadspin.com/a-blueprint-for-unionizing-college-sports-1513193846

Key cases:

In 1999, the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB)—the five-member administrative agency that oversees the union process under the NLRA—considered whether the interns, residents, and fellows at Boston Medical Center counted as "employees" eligible for unionization. The hospital argued that their staffers were "students" rather than "employees," but the Board rejected this argument, "notwithstanding that a purpose of their being at a hospital may also be, in part, educational." The term "employee," the Board explained, has traditionally meant someone who "works for another in return for financial or other compensation," or a "person in the service of another under any contract of hire . . . where the employer has the . . . right to control and direct the employees in the material details of how the work is to be performed."

The other major student/employee case arose five years later, when the Board received a petition from graduate assistants at Brown University. Overturning an opinion issued in 2000, the Board refused to order an election: the graduate assistants were not "employees" because "the overall relationship between the graduate student assistants and Brown [was] primarily an educational one, rather than an economic one." The Board didn't announce a clear test for determining when someone becomes more "student" than "employee," but key factors included the graduate assistants' "principal time commitments" and the relationship between their labor and their "academic development" as scholars.
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Analysis:

Under the traditional common law test discussed in Boston Medical Center, college athletes seem to check all the "employee" boxes. They (1) perform valuable services for universities, just like professional athletes; (2) they are directed and controlled in how their work is to be performed (and in their non-work time, too); and (3) in return, they receive financial or other compensation (scholarships and miscellaneous perks).

It's certainly true that college athletes aren't paid a regular salary—well, they're not supposed to be—but the form of compensation isn't controlling. As law professors Amy and Robert McCormick have pointed out, it was once common for lumberjacks and mineworkers to be paid in company scrip, redeemable only at the company store; nobody would claim that this made lumberjacks and mineworkers anything less than "employees."

The Northwestern players will likely assert that they count as "employees" under the less favorable Brown University approach, too. Whether college athletes are "primarily students" or "primarily athletes" is, of course, debatable. But several of the considerations that cut against graduate assistants in Brown University will work in favor of the players here: the non-academic time commitments that Division I athletics demand are substantial, and the players' labor often is completely at odds with their academic development as students.
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Baron Scicluna · Feb 1, 2014

cranberry said:

Here's a solid explanation of the issues involved:

http://deadspin.com/a-blueprint-for-unionizing-college-sports-1513193846

Key cases:

In 1999, the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB)—the five-member administrative agency that oversees the union process under the NLRA—considered whether the interns, residents, and fellows at Boston Medical Center counted as "employees" eligible for unionization. The hospital argued that their staffers were "students" rather than "employees," but the Board rejected this argument, "notwithstanding that a purpose of their being at a hospital may also be, in part, educational." The term "employee," the Board explained, has traditionally meant someone who "works for another in return for financial or other compensation," or a "person in the service of another under any contract of hire . . . where the employer has the . . . right to control and direct the employees in the material details of how the work is to be performed."

The other major student/employee case arose five years later, when the Board received a petition from graduate assistants at Brown University. Overturning an opinion issued in 2000, the Board refused to order an election: the graduate assistants were not "employees" because "the overall relationship between the graduate student assistants and Brown [was] primarily an educational one, rather than an economic one." The Board didn't announce a clear test for determining when someone becomes more "student" than "employee," but key factors included the graduate assistants' "principal time commitments" and the relationship between their labor and their "academic development" as scholars.
Click to expand...

Analysis:

Under the traditional common law test discussed in Boston Medical Center, college athletes seem to check all the "employee" boxes. They (1) perform valuable services for universities, just like professional athletes; (2) they are directed and controlled in how their work is to be performed (and in their non-work time, too); and (3) in return, they receive financial or other compensation (scholarships and miscellaneous perks).

It's certainly true that college athletes aren't paid a regular salary—well, they're not supposed to be—but the form of compensation isn't controlling. As law professors Amy and Robert McCormick have pointed out, it was once common for lumberjacks and mineworkers to be paid in company scrip, redeemable only at the company store; nobody would claim that this made lumberjacks and mineworkers anything less than "employees."

The Northwestern players will likely assert that they count as "employees" under the less favorable Brown University approach, too. Whether college athletes are "primarily students" or "primarily athletes" is, of course, debatable. But several of the considerations that cut against graduate assistants in Brown University will work in favor of the players here: the non-academic time commitments that Division I athletics demand are substantial, and the players' labor often is completely at odds with their academic development as students.
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The NCAA is going to have a heckuva time explaining how Final Four teams missing three weeks of classes to be playing in the NCAA Tournament is educational. They can do all of their "the kids are learning about working together as a team" bullshit all they want.

heyabbott · Feb 1, 2014

Big Circus said:

LanceyHoward said:

As a tuition payer at UVA it makes great sense to me to shut down that athletic department.
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As a UVA grad and fan, I agree. Year in and year out, the Wahoos are the greatest disappointment in my life.
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move to Cleveland

BenPoquette · Feb 2, 2014

exmediahack said:

Flip Wilson said:

exmediahack said:

Baron Scicluna said:

Armchair_QB said:

You realize Division III kids who pay their own way play on school nights too, right?
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Sure, but they don't travel across the country to do so, and they usually don't miss hardly any classes.

Looking at my D-III alma mater's basketball schedule, all of their weeknight games are within a couple of hours bus ride or less. The longer bus rides are on weekend, and their one out-of the region tournament was during winter break.
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Also, Division III athletes - especially at private schools with 2,000 or fewer students - usually benefit from professors and support staff that are very accommodating.
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And Division I athletes really benefit from professors and support staff that are very accommodating. It's easy to tell which professors are the favorites of the athletic department academic advisers just by the sheer number of jocks in their classes. And there aren't just a couple of TAs in the academic advising department; there's a dozen or so at my university.
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The Division I tutor/academic assistance program is intended to keep the stars eligible. That's the job. For example, Ohio State doesn't care if 15 non-starting football players flunk out each year. They'll get 15 more to fill their positions.

Oberlin College needs its student-athletes to stay eligible - and keep paying that 35k a year - to play in their little basketball games in front of 100 paying customers.
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100???? Very generous. Maybe for a football game at Dill Field, but they aren't packing 100 into Phillips unless Lorenzo's is giving away pizza.

Baron Scicluna · Feb 2, 2014

BenPoquette said:

exmediahack said:

Flip Wilson said:

exmediahack said:

Baron Scicluna said:

Armchair_QB said:

You realize Division III kids who pay their own way play on school nights too, right?
Click to expand...

Sure, but they don't travel across the country to do so, and they usually don't miss hardly any classes.

Looking at my D-III alma mater's basketball schedule, all of their weeknight games are within a couple of hours bus ride or less. The longer bus rides are on weekend, and their one out-of the region tournament was during winter break.
Click to expand...

Also, Division III athletes - especially at private schools with 2,000 or fewer students - usually benefit from professors and support staff that are very accommodating.
Click to expand...

And Division I athletes really benefit from professors and support staff that are very accommodating. It's easy to tell which professors are the favorites of the athletic department academic advisers just by the sheer number of jocks in their classes. And there aren't just a couple of TAs in the academic advising department; there's a dozen or so at my university.
Click to expand...

The Division I tutor/academic assistance program is intended to keep the stars eligible. That's the job. For example, Ohio State doesn't care if 15 non-starting football players flunk out each year. They'll get 15 more to fill their positions.

Oberlin College needs its student-athletes to stay eligible - and keep paying that 35k a year - to play in their little basketball games in front of 100 paying customers.
Click to expand...

100???? Very generous. Maybe for a football game at Dill Field, but they aren't packing 100 into Phillips unless Lorenzo's is giving away pizza.
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Just out of curiousity, I looked up their attendance. They're drawing 227 per game this year.

http://www.goyeo.com/custompages/stats/MBB/Men%27s%20Basketball%20Stats/2013-14/TEAMCUME.HTM

The women, meanwhile, are drawing 115 per game:

http://www.goyeo.com/custompages/stats/WBB/Women%27s%20Basketball%20Stats/2012-13/TEAMCUME.HTM

Packing the house!

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Northwestern football players seek to join union

The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

cranberry Well-Known Member

Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

RonClements Well-Known Member

LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

cranberry Well-Known Member

Big Circus Well-Known Member

cranberry Well-Known Member

Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

heyabbott Well-Known Member

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Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

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Northwestern football players seek to join union

The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

cranberry Well-Known Member

Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

RonClements Well-Known Member

LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

cranberry Well-Known Member

Big Circus Well-Known Member

cranberry Well-Known Member

Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

heyabbott Well-Known Member

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Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

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