Ortiz, ManRam tested positive in 2003?

I'm sure he's the only one who wasn't natural the whole time.

 

Fine, cheapen away.

You're still left with, what, Mickey Mantle?

 

Who said that he was?
Just seems kind of ironic to call the guy a 'freak of nature.'

I have no problem putting Manny in the Hall. Unbelievable hitter. But if he's inducted, Palmeiro and Sosa should be as well.

 

I think there's a pretty simple distinction.

Sosa and Palmeiro would largely be in thanks to reaching magic numbers that were set long before the steroid era. With the benchmarks out, you've got a harder road for either of them. Now, I don't have a problem with anyone voting for either of them. They were both great players.

Manny didn't need any benchmarks. He's got the ninth-best career OPS ever. He's a hitting machine. Steroids didn't give him the power to do that. Thousands of guys took steroids, and didn't come close to Manny's numbers.

Like BYH said, keep him out and you might as well not have the museum.

 

The point is his numbers don't matter. He could hit 800 career home runs. He could hit .420 for the next three seasons. It's irrelevant at this point. Some writers WILL NEVER vote for him.

There's a guy out there with 762 career home runs and SEVEN MVP awards --- and there's debate whether HE will be in the Hall of Fame. So Manny certainly isn't a lock. Especially not with two positive tests and a real question of if anything he accomplished in his career was authentic.

 

Steroids didn't give him the power to do that?
Then why the fuck did he take them?

 

So, what, they're just going to stop putting people in the Hall of Fame?

Start putting in .240 hitting utility infielders just to prove a point?

I could see that argument, say, 10 years ago. It's pretty clear that use was pretty damn prevalent.

You want to put a positive test or a perjury conviction on their plaque? I'm right there with you.

But you can't keep Bonds or Manny or even ARod out based solely on steroids. We've all watched them hit. We can all look at the numbers. We can differ on how much to adjust the numbers in our own heads. And that is going to hurt the Palmeiros and the Sosas and the McGwires of the world.

But if a guy is a no-brainer, I think we're at the point where he's gotta stay a no-brainer. Or there will, literally, be no one in the hall from a generation. Because, really, can you be sure about anyone?

I'll tell you what turned me around on this, too: Juan Freaking Rincon.

Just look at his numbers from 2004-06.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rincoju01.shtml?redir

He wasn't a closer. He was a damn setup guy. Making $300,000 a year. And he went from an average bullpen guy to an unhittable beast who could throw every night.

If freaking setup guys like Rincon were getting that kind of benefit from steroids -- while making less than a million dollars a year -- I have to believe starters and closers with a lot more cash on the line were geeked up the their eyeteeth.

Why the fuck did he do them? Because Juan Fucking Rincon was suddenly throwing 96 mph with a fucking frisbee slider in the eighth fucking inning, that's fucking why. And a guy who hit .315/.412/.594/1.006 against juiced pitchers is a fucking Hall of Famer, whether he juiced or not.

 

Release the list. I want to see all the names.

By the way, Mickey Mantle drank like a fish and came to the park hung over sometimes.

 

Zeke,
U

Zeke,
You're misreading me, I think.
I don't think Manny should be excluded from the Hall. He was one of the two or three best hitters of HIS era. It just so happens his era was this one. And the HOF voting for this one is going to be tricky.

No matter what his OPS is, no matter how many homeruns he ends up with, some writers are not going to vote for him. Not saying it's right, but it's reality.

Like you mentioned, it might get to a point where we go years without someone being elected. Who knows?

 

If the BBWAA goes two years in a row without electing anyone, they will lose their voting status. The Hall and MLB would act quickly, and it's something they both want to do anyway.

 

Does the commissioner have any special power to put a person in the hall of fame?

If he does, he should excercise it and put Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Manny, ARod (obviously when the latter two retire) and even Pete Rose and any other player who clearly deserves to be there but won't because of off-field stuff which seem to divide and polarize people.

By doing that, he'd ensure a much quicker end to talk about steroids and Pete Rose wouldn't come up every single year and he'd take the burden off the shoulders of others to vote these guys in.

The fact that these guys will remain on the ballot for what, 15 more years, means that this steroid shit is going to be hanging over baseball's head for years and years to come.

 

I don't believe the commish can put someone in the Hall, no. I could be wrong, though, but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Also, I love how some people expect future Hall of Famers to be these goody-goody players. Steroids? Out. Reefer? Out. Drinks a lot? Out.