Pete Rose in the HOF? Yes or no?

And Gold, if that's his biggest crime, it's DEFINITELY not worthy of keeping him out of the Hall of Fame. Unless you want to keep some others out for gluttony ... and a few others for laziness ...

 

Junkie,

Excellent post. I don't really agree with it, but very nicely argued. Seriously.

I think you are overstating how clear it was what McGwire and Sosa were doing in 1998. It's not like we knew then what we all know now. Our perceptions now are colored by Sosa's corked bat, and by the way both behaved before congress.

And one more thing. Rose knew from the day he entered pro baseball that absolute rule No. 1 is you do not bet on the game. Period. Ever. He knew he was committing MLB's ultimate sin. Should it be baseball's equivalent of a capital offense? That's debateable. But it was and, idiot or not, Rose knew it. He simply believed himself to be above the rules of the game. Or at least sneaky enough to not get caught.

Yes, he belongs in the Hall of Fame....someday. When he's gone. When he can't enjoy it. And when he can't tell any more lies.

 

I've said it many times: The steroid stuff is worse than gambling. What Rose did presents the appearance of impropriety, and his betting gave him motive for influencing the outcome of games. Steroid users have gone a step beyond. They have actually altered the outcomes through their illicit practices. In my mind that's a significant distinction.

 

I love this "we must protect the integrity of baseball" by keeping gambling Pete and needle-arm Barry out of the Hall of Fame.

What integrity? The integrity of a game that until 1947 didn't allow black people to play? The integrity of a game that was deep seated in racism and bigotry up until the early 1970's? The integrity of a game that celebrates and romanticizes drug addict/dead beat dads like Babe Ruth and bigots like Ty Cobb?

Give me a fucking break with that bullshit. Baseball's "integrity" is a myth.

If you want to keep Pete Rose and the alleged steroid users out of the hall -- let's make sure we take racist assholes like Kennesaw Mountain Landis -- guys who were most responsible for making sure baseball remained segregated 20 years longer than it could of -- out of the hall.

 

Interesting post.

a) Babe Ruth was a lot of things, but a deadbeat dad definitely wasn't one of them. He raised both his adopted daughter, Dorothy, and Claire's daughter, Julia, after his wife's death/his remarriage in 1929. And unless you're counting heavy, heavy quantities of alcohol, he wasn't a drug addict, either.

2) If you want to blast the guy responsible for the color line in baseball, I think you're looking for Cap Anson. Landis certainly didn't encourage any owners to break the color barrier, but there were never any serious threats to break it before his death, either. (And no, the 1943 Phillies/Bill Veeck story doesn't count. It's been thoroughly debunked. It never happened.)

 

Chiming in late....

I think Rose should be in. He was an excellent, naturally talented, ball player. What he did didn't effect the outcomes of games.

Any one on steriods cheated.

 

The Pittsburgh Pirates attempted to sign Josh Gibson and Landis nixed it.

And I have read many accounts of Babe Ruth and most of them -- the un-romanticised and un-cleansed versions -- don't exactly paint him as "father of the year" or "husband of the year" for that matter. In fact ,it was one of his great regrets when he was dying that he wasn't more of a family man during his life.

Ruth also has been mentioned as a drug user and a boozer (which, by the way, during prohibition was "illegal" which is one of the flimsy arguments the "let's get the steroid head Bonds" crowd tries to use about steroids, which weren't against the rules of baseball )

 

Booze doesn't exactly make it easier to hit a baseball a long-ass motherfuckin' way, though. Steroids do. Steroids also make it easier to recover quicker during the long season, allowing for even more long-ass motherfuckin' home runs.

 

Are you willing to ask the same questions about Cal Ripken that you do about Bonds? Because just looking at the visual test that so many people seem so sure they can do, Ripken blew up as much as Bonds did and his head was bigger in the 1980's as it was in the 1990's. Are you so sure a guy can go 2,130 games in a row without missing without using something to help him recover faster?

Why aren't these questions being asked?

 

Another 1943 myth that, like the Bill Veeck story, simply did not happen. Pittsburgh owner Bill Bensawanger never attempted to sign Gibson -- never even talked to him about signing a contract. Just like Veeck's tall tale about buying the Phillies and stocking them with Negro Leagues all-stars.

For sure, Gibson wanted to play for the crosstown Pirates instead of the Crawfords. He wanted to play in the big leagues, and it left him in despair when Jackie Robinson was chosen to break the color barrier instead of him. He was very resentful about it, and it drove him to drink heavily and he died before age 40.

Landis didn't nix anything because it never got that far. (Granted, maybe it never got that far because he didn't encourage any owners in baseball to break the color barrier. But still ... it didn't happen.)

Never said he was an ideal father, or role model, for that matter. Womanizer, adulterer, boozer, carouser, you name it.

But you called him a deadbeat. That, he was not.

 

That's not your best argument. Not when the man has made good enough contact on 749 major league pitches to get them out of a major league ballpark. Steroids don't speed up your eye-hand coordination.

 

You are correct "deadbeat" was a poor choice of words. "Absentee" was probably more accurate.

And the Pirates/Josh Gibson story is not a myth, at least not according to some of the credible negro league and baseball historians I have spoken with for various stories.