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President Trump: The NEW one and only politics thread

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Moderator1, Nov 12, 2016.

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  1. Neutral Corner

    Neutral Corner Well-Known Member

  2. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Depends.

    Was he acting on the instructions of a foreign power when pulling US forces out?

    The move seems to have taken everyone by surprise - including our allies and our own military.
     
  3. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I don't really know what to say to anyone who thinks impeachment is out of line at this late date.

    Seriously?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Bush supported gay civil unions at the state level, which would have given gay people the same exact legal rights as married couples. It was a semantic distinction, based on the claim that marriage, based on how people had always done it for thousands of years, had always been something between a man and a woman.

    Personally, I found that sort of thing silly. I don't know why anyone would care who marries whom or what you call it. But I am not George Bush, and I wasn't trying to get elected. As I said, to be a Republican, you at least had to walk a tight rope like that because of the Christian moralists whose votes he needed.

    I'd also point out that in 2000 or 2004, attitudes toward this were different than they are even now. The idea of states redefining marriage to include gays was just starting to take hold, and public opinion broadly wasn't as sympathetic to the idea as it is today.

    If you think Bush was a hateful man, because in 2004 he favored a semantic "civil union" rather than "marriage" distinction, so be it.

    Of course, for thousands of years, legally marriage actually had always been between men and women, not between the same gender, and even though I (and I assume you) would have been all for changing that, because who gives a shit?. ... it still amounted to a pretty big change in how things had pretty much ALWAYS been. And no, I don't think someone who didn't jump right on board with that change was necessarily hateful. The mere fact that he was trying to walk a tightrope with the civil union thing, actually demonstrates the opposite to me. This guy was not Mike Pence, whose actions have demonstrated actual hate in his heart. Sorry.
     
  5. garrow

    garrow Well-Known Member

    If Trump's conduct ain't impeachable, I hope we never have a president whose behavior would warrant a "higher" ethical standard for removal.
     
  6. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    Bush was a terrible President, but not IMO a malicious one. My thoughts on him now (glad he's gone, don't think he deserves pariah status) stem in large part from my knowledge that I too would be a terrible President, although in different ways.
     
    Fred siegle likes this.
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Just to add to my last post. I totally forgot that John Kerry was against gay marriage during that 2004 election, too.

    Kerry favored civil unions, too, and thought marriage should remain between men and women. He favored civil unions that gave the same rights, but said that marriage itself should remain between men and women. He didn't favor a constitutional amendment binding the states to his stance, which was how he tried to distinguish himself, but he personally voiced the same exact stance as Bush about marriage remaining between men and women.

    This was 2004, not 2019. That was where the country was then, and it's not entirely surprising, because the change in attitude required people breaking from an idea (that men and women can legally marry, not same sex) that had pretty much always been the norm.
     
  8. garrow

    garrow Well-Known Member

    John Kerry seems like a relic from a different era. Yet, he is younger than several current Dem candidates for POTUS.....
     
  9. X-Hack

    X-Hack Well-Known Member


    First of all, pushing for the Constitutional amendment barring states from recognizing same-sex marriage is a pretty big goddamn distinction from verbally saying you support civil unions instead. So is pushing to get anti-same-sex marriage ballot measures on the ballots in a dozen states to boost turnout for your own reelection campaign. So is appointing justices you hope will ultimately rule in favor of marriage inequality. So is working behind the scenes to help secure the appointment of another justice who is now poised to confirm the right of employers to fire people solely because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. So was the whisper campain about Ann Richards when he was running for governor.

    Look. I think people should be civil to one another. I think Ellen was right not to cause a nasty confrontation in person. And at an individual level, I have no doubt GWB is a genial individual who anyone could get along with. But I completely uunderstand those who took Ellen’s disingenuous reduction of Bush’s record to “different beliefs” as though people’s fundamental rights can be reduced to differing preferences for Pepsi or Coke. Especially since she - with all her wealth and influence and the elite circles she travels in - is completely insulated from threats to her own comfort and safety.

    And let’s not pretend Kerry’s (or Obama’s) statement that he’s for civil unions - without actually lifting a finger to prevent same-sex marriage - because he wasn’t politically courageous enough at that point to give vocal support is the same as taking an active effort to prevent LGBTQ people from enjoying equal protection of the law.

    I’m really sick of the ”let’s put our political opinions aside and be kind” bullshit when it’s being deployed as a manipulative way to make people feel blissfully ignorant and better about themselves while preventing those whose safety and dignity is threatened by actions stemming from those “differences of opinion” (ie. about who gets to be treated like a human being) from making others confront that reality and maybe making them feel a little bit uncomfortable.

    She didn’t need to spit in Bush’s face but she didn’t need to bend over backwards to play to the “fuck your feelings, Snowflake” crowd either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  10. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Worth noting Elizabeth Warren has a staff poet.

     
    garrow and 3_Octave_Fart like this.
  11. 3_Octave_Fart

    3_Octave_Fart Well-Known Member

    There's a weird historical rehabilitation going on with GWB that is worth a book alone.
    I don't know how he's done it - and it's not all Trump - but he has transformed his reputation in a brief time.
    For a known dim bulb he had the great sensibility and discipline to make himself disappear. Not many of his stature could pull that off, I don't think.
     
  12. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    I think it was his cute paintings.

    [​IMG]
     
    lakefront likes this.
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