Professional wrestling thread

Omar and Gimpy, being big-time ROH fans, can probably speak to this better than I, but here's the Reader's Digest explaination:

* WWE rarely gives wrestlers more than a few minutes to develop a match.
* Incoming talent are forced to conform to the "WWE style" match, which in addition to being short with rare exceptions also overloads on ref bumps and makes the face use a set string of moves in his big end-of-match comeback (HBK with the forearm, kip up, reverse atomic drop, elbow drop, missed superkick, ____ and superkick hit, but you saw it with Bret Hart and see it with Cena).
* Gimmicks are more real (or perceived as more real) in the indies. CM Punk was unique in he got to bring his straight edge punk character to WWE. Not so unique: his burial. That goes with the point above, that WWE won't reward people who get over with non-WWE style moves or characters (Punk, RVD, Sabu), because they can't take credit for it.

There's more, but I'll defer to others.

 

A few Meltzer notes:

--The theme of tonight's Raw is "Mr. McMahon Appreciation Night."

That, that right there is WWE in a nutshell. Lots of Vince McMahon and in the context of an overused appreciation night (Austin, Rock, HHH, and McMahon himself have all had at least one).

--There looks to be a major change in the planned Wrestlemania line-up having to do with John Cena's match. The decision hasn't been fully made but I'm told the change of a change from the plan is significant.

There's a good buzz from the Cena-Umaga match last night. Third match between them? I hope not, if only because I'd rather see Cena-HBK or Cena-HBK-Rated RKO. Theory bounced around: Undertaker uses his title shot on Cena. Seems unlikely, but why not?

--WWE has a Wrestlemania press conference in Windsor, ONT at Silver City Windsor on Friday at Noon with Hillbilly Jim, C.M. Punk, Carlito, Chris Benoit, Carl DeMarco and Windsor mayor Eddie Francis

Most disturbed Survivor Series team EVER.

 

MM hit on a lot of the better points, but I wanna try to put it in my own words.
Let me start off by saying that no one wants to like WWE more than me. It's the most readily accessible product to watch. I grew up on it, started watching it in 1982 and have been a fan of pro wrestling ever since. I've always been a WWE watcher, and started to include NWA/WCW in 1985. I went through a period of the mid 90s where I didn't watch WWE at all. They became too focused on the "cartoon" characters and the wrestlers were totally unrelatable. I came back for the "Attitude Era" and became a big fan again. That period with Austin, Rock, Foley, Undertaker, Triple H ... wow. It didn't get much more entertaining than that.

But slowly, I began to grow tired of HHH always being on my TV. Always being champion. Dominating every segment. He went from being my favorite wrestler of them all, to the reason I started to grow bored of WWE. The storylines were lame, Austin and Rock left and Foley retired ... it was time to search for an alternative. So, on the recommendation of a few people, I purchased three Ring of Honor DVDs, including their very first event "The Era of Honor Begins."

I popped in the DVD and I was mesmerized. I had never seen action like that in the ring. It looked so ... real. I was popping like a fan in an arena, yet I was all alone watching TV. From the first match (Amazing Red vs. Jay Briscoe) to the main event (Low Ki vs. Christopher Daniels vs. Bryan Danielson), I saw the best matches I had seen in years. I wanted to see what was next, but the DVDs I purchased were out of chronological order, so I immediately purchased the next few to get in order.

The more I watched, the more I realized that what makes ROH so entertaining is, it's not just about workrate and seriousness. As I watched each DVD, I realized the storylines made more sense than in WWE. You could see the long-term planning. Something that happened months earlier played an impact on a new storyline. Unlike WWE where people are enemies one week and tag team partners the next, everything makes sense in ROH.
The other thing I enjoy about ROH is how they book winning and losing. Matches very rarely end with a countout or DQ, so, it's inevitable that wrestlers are going to be pinned or tap out. Yet, very rarely is a wrestler's standing hurt by a loss. Why? It's all about proper booking. Matches are booked to make both wrestlers look strong, with the winner gaining a bit more. I'll give you an example. Samoa Joe's debut in Ring of Honor was against Low Ki. The result? Low Ki, a much smaller wrestler, knocked out Joe and pinned him clean for the win. Yet, Joe came out of the match looking so strong. It was a friggin war, man. One of the hardest-hitting matches I've ever seen. It was clear that Joe was someone to be reckoned with. Low Ki got a huge boost in beating the much-bigger Joe. But the big Samoan also looked strong. Recently, Nigel McGuiness had a series of matches against ROH champ Bryan Danielson. McGuiness didn't win the belt, but despite losing the majority of the matches, he was elevated and now is considered one of the elite wrestlers in the organization.

It's also fun watching guys, who the first time you see them in ROH are considered curtain jerkers (they wrestle in the opening match, while everyone gets seated) become legit stars in the company and develop an faithful following of fans. The tag team of Dunn & Marcos were fun. Most recently, Delirious has gone through this transformation. Also, Austin Aries and Roderick Strong are considered stars on the indy scene in large part because ROH groomed them the right way.

(cont'd next post)

 

You don't see that in WWE. A year or two ago, there was a match on RAW that pitted Shelton Benjamin against Shawn Michaels. It was an amazing match that really showcased Benjamin's talents. After the match, Michaels played up how impressed he was with Benjamin. I thought it was a no-brainer what was coming next: Michaels takes Benjamin under his wing and teaches him to be the next "Showstopper!" Instead, just weeks later, Benjamin's "momma" arrives and kills all of his heat. The storyline with Michaels is dropped and Benjamin STILL hasn't recovered.

In the last year or so, I've watched such ROH stars as C.M. Punk, Paul London, Brian "Spanky" Kendrick, James Gibson (Jamie Noble) go from ROH, where they entertained fans with their characters and matches and got noticed by WWE, become WWE-bots. Their strengths are played down as they're forced to adopt WWE's style of wrestling - more punch/kick, less athleticism.

Currently, WWE prefers the huge bodybuilder types, who can neither wrestle or do interviews. The thing that's most frustrating is, it seems the fans have no say. ECW fans who were excited to see the brand make a return, were treated to McMahon's version of ECW, of which there's NOTHING extreme about it. Fans who have gotten behind C.M. Punk get to look forward to his being buried by the company in the coming months because "he doesn't deserve the cheers he's getting."
It's gotten so bad that announcers (Jim Ross, Joey Styles, Michael Cole, Taz, JBL, Lawler) are prohibited from using the word "wrestling" or "wrestler" on the air. They're to use "sports entertainment" or "superstar" or "sports entertainer."

Bottom line: For the last year or two, I've been mildly entertained by WWE's "entertainment" product and very entertained by ROH's "wrestling" product.
I know this is a manifesto (LOL) but I love the business and it's been so frustrating watching WWE deteriorate into what WCW was in its dying days - a really bad, uninteresting product.

 

I've never heard of ROH. Is that on TV somewhere? I watched most of an episode of TNA a year or so ago and wasn't particularly impressed, but since WCW folded, that's all the non-WWE I've seen.

 

ROH is an indy wrestling company. They don't have a t.v. deal in the States. I think The Fight Network (or Channel) in Canada airs their shows.

If you go to ROHwrestling.com, there's a video wire that recaps the last shows.

Buy a couple of DVDs; they run between $10 and $20, and they're great.

 

Yeah, ROHwrestling.com often has sales, too. $10 sales, Buy 3 get 1 free sales (I live for those). I own every event from the first event through Oct. 2005. I usually buy 4 or 5 at a time every two or three months. Gives me something to look forward to. And, from what I understand, 2006 was an awesome year storyline wise for Ring of Honor. I can't wait to watch that develop. If I can be of more assistance introducing some WWE alternatives, lemme know.
By the way, Rusty, despite all the talent TNA has, I'm not particularly impressed with the organization either. Once you watch ROH and get familiar with all the names like Christopher Daniels, A.J. Styles, Samoa Joe, Homicide, Sen-Shi (aka Low Ki), Austin Starr (Austin Aries), Alex Shelly, etc., etc., you'll understand why people like myself, Omar, Claws and Mystery Meat get so frustrated. Because, we've seen just how talented these guys are, but they get stuck behind clods who are supposedly more entertaining.

 

TNA's got Vince Russo back and here's a small sample of what's wrong with them as it pertains to the next PPV.

Chris Daniels has no match slated for the PPV and Samoa Joe will be an enforcer, not a wrestler, in the Cage vs. Angle title match.

Oh, but one half of the now broken up AMW and a former WWE diva reject do have a mixed tag match on the PPV.

Ugh.

Hey Gimpy, good posts on the thread tonight. MM same to you. Always good to let others know what's REAL about pro wrestling.

By the way, anyone see Raw tonight? Brutal.

 

There's nothing like utterly burying your IC champion to put over a massive, no-talent hack like Khali who gets serious X-Pac heat.

The WWE bookers are really lost.

 

My thoughts exactly.

Looks like maybe an Edge-Orton match in the works for Wrestlemania, though I can't believe Undertaker is still up for anything major these days. Looking around YouTube last week for some random Super Bowl commercial, I came across the WWF commercial years ago with the Rock, Steve Austin, Mankind, Sable ... and Undertaker. I've been happy not to see him wrestle for years now (I only watch RAW, no PPVs), I hope that streak can continue.

 

I gotta disagree with ya there, Oz. Undertaker, for me anyway, is a helluva worker. Sure, he's been in some lame matches lately, but I blame McMahon for that. Why? Because 'Taker is always the one who has to fight the no-talent big guys. Heidenreich? Mark Henry? Nathan Jones? Khali? Ugh.
Not sure if you saw 'Taker vs. Angle from last February, but what a great match that was. It was one of the top five matches of the year, in my opinion. Taker busts his butt out there and, when he's actually given something to work with, he usually has a strong match. I actually think if he wrestles Cena at 'Mania, it'd be a good match. While I don't think Cena is anything to write home about, he's still athletic enough that Undertaker could make a good match out of it. Plus, just from a "politics" standpoint, it'd be interesting to see who'd win: Undertaker and his win streak? Or WWE's Golden Child?

 

I second what MM said. Taker always has been a good worker, even in his early days in WCW as Mean Mark. You better believe I was damn happy when I heard his gong and watched him stare down Cena last night on Raw. And the look on Cena's face said it all. Cena is fucked come WM.