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Romney a Lock - You Can Put it On the Board YESSSS!!

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L), Mar 5, 2012.

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  1. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    Bargaining can make it however the will of the strongest group in the situation wills it.
     
    Alma, Apr 24, 2012
    #1189
  2. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    And why is that? Because Wall Street wrote the laws that way. So bondholders can stand in line in front of employees. We debated it on the GM thread too, but there is no natural law that says bondholders must be taken care of before workers. It's just where the political will has taken us.
     
    LongTimeListener, Apr 24, 2012
    #1190
  3. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    I'll start a new thread elsewhere so this isn't a threadjack. Don't want to sidetrack the Romney facet any more than necessary ...
     
    doctorquant, Apr 24, 2012
    #1191
  4. Uncle.Ruckus

    Uncle.Ruckus Guest

    I really hope Willard continues to battle Obama for the youth vote.

    Yep, the 65-year-old Mormon with 18 grandchildren isn't at all wasting resources on that one.
     
    Uncle.Ruckus, Apr 24, 2012
    #1192
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I can't believe people write things like this, without understanding the fundamental difference between people who loan money to businesses in return for a promised return, and employees, who have no stake -- debt OR equity -- in the business, but simply have contracted their labor in return for a wage.

    Bond holders fund the operations of a business, when a business feels the need to borrow to operate or expand. Without bondholders willing to lend to most companies, workers don't have their jobs. The businesses can't do R&D that leads to jobs. They can't expand. They often can't even fund operations -- such as PAYING the employees.

    The other fundamental difference is that bondholders have a claim on the company itself -- they have loaned it money under negotiated terms, and they are owed the coupon or interest, plus their principal they were promised in return for their loaning the business money. If those terms are reneged on, the bondholders have a claim to the assets of the company itself.

    Workers have no such claim, just because they have a job at a company. In most situations, they have no stake -- debt or equity -- in the company itself. They have a labor contract. They perform services in return for pay.

    Of course bondholders stand in front of employees. They put up the capital! If employees want a different situation for themselves, they should put up capital and fund their OWN businesses.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 24, 2012
    #1193
  6. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    There are plenty of defined benefit plans still around and plenty of companies making good on them. Defined benefit pension plans are only dishonest if you negotiate one but don't intend to honor your contract, which is dishonest in itself. If a company reaches a point where it can no longer support such a program it needs to demonstrate that and negotiate for relief.
     
    cranberry, Apr 24, 2012
    #1194
  7. Starman

    Starman Well-Known Member

    Nah. Just the years and decades of their lives.

    Gotta make sure the paper-pushers, most of whose actual involvement in the company consists of calling up their stockbrokers and telling them to buy stock, are taken care of first.
     
    Starman, Apr 24, 2012
    #1195
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Years working at a job at the same place doesn't give you a stake or equity or a debt obligation owed to you in the company. It gives you a job.

    If you want equity in something, go out and start a company. Your employees, if you are successful, won't have a claim to what you own, either. You've contracted with them to perform jobs. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 24, 2012
    #1196
  9. Stitch

    Stitch Active Member

    You must have been a great boss to work for when you did something in the business.
     
    Stitch, Apr 24, 2012
    #1197
  10. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    Actually, he would have been a great boss in the business (I would assume sports journalism was the business) if he said those sort of things. Those are the facts. Anybody who says differently is selling something, and trust me, you don't wanna buy it.
     
    doctorquant, Apr 24, 2012
    #1198
  11. Stitch

    Stitch Active Member

    When employers stop asking employees to give up their souls to make the company successful, then I'll buy the argument employers don't owe anything more than a paycheck.
     
    Stitch, Apr 24, 2012
    #1199
  12. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    These statements aren't as profound as you imagine they are. We all get how it <i>works</i>. The idea you're arguing against is that it's distrustful and hurtful to employees to put a metaphorical rattling can ahead of their welfare, even when you cite, yes, The Way The World Works. Foolish, too.

    Because there's another layer to how the world works -- how it really works -- and, as I keep telling people, it's not a level you want to see on any kind of widespread basis in America. The stakes are bigger now than they were in the 1960s -- when the "bondholders" of a restaurant would kindly prefer black people weren't served because of its effect on the bottom line -- because it's not just race now. It's class. The possibility's out there. The wealthiest Americans can keep pushing and pushing, and that's fine, until it gives. And when it does, that next layer is the most regrettable one.

    It's better to be generous - and prudent - now.
     
    Alma, Apr 24, 2012
    #1200
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