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Should the President of the United States have a Swiss bank account?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 1, 2012.

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  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Did Kevin Brown earn $105 million, or $15 million a year, because there weren't five people out of 7 billion on the planet who could pitch a baseball better? If so, after it was apparent it was one of the worst deals ever, would you agree that there wasn't a better pool of applicants to earn that kind of money?

    When you point to two extremes--a single mistake compared to a single success---to try to make a point about them being a rule, you aren't really making an honest comparison. Comparing one disaster to one success, without looking at everything in the aggregate is just generalization designed to make a distorted argument.
     
  2. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    Kevin Brown at the time of the contract could throw a baseball better than all but five people on the planet, yes. He ended up being terrible, which tickled me to no end, but he was pretty clearly in that realm.

    I don't see any way to say "we need (insert name of CEO here) above ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD and we have to pay them $20 million or we will fail as a business!" and justify that. It's a closed system where they decide each other's pay packages.
     
  3. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but my point wasn't that there aren't shitty CEOs (or even shitty people who become CEOs). of course there are.

    But, by and large they have the education credentials, and have taken the necessary steps to climb the corporate ladder. Or, they founded a company. They're also largely very driven people.

    These are not guys or gals juts picked out of thin air, and placed in the board room. And, too often, the folks here think that's the case, or that they could do the job just as well.

    Well, if you think that, go for it.

    Also, as too founders who make lousy CEOs, there are lots of them. Many are smart enough to figure that out, and will hire an experienced CEO. Some have even been fired by their board.

    One guy we all now think of as one of the best CEOs, Steve Jobs, was fired from the company he founded.

    And, this was my point as well.

    Carl Pavano sucked as a Yankee. But, no one here thinks they should have been in the Yankees starting rotation instead of him. We can all acknowledge that he had an exceptional arm, had worked his way up through amateur baseball, and the minor leagues, and had success at the Major League level.
     
  4. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    Based on her performance at Autodesk, the Yahoo! board did believe that there were not five people on the planet better suited to run their company.

    She might have sucked, but again, she wasn't some unknown, who they would have been able to predict failure for.

    They also got rid of her pretty damn fast. (Plus, Yahoo! was in a very tough position when they hired. I'm not sure who would have done much better. Yahoo blew it a long time ago when they didn't use their high stock valuation to purchase other companies.)
     
  5. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    In 1980, CEOs earned 42 times as much as the average worker. In 2010, they earned 343 times as much.

    Has the selection and development process become so refined and scientific to justify this jump?
     
  6. Greenhorn

    Greenhorn Active Member

    And being one of the worst American CEOs of all-time like Carly Fiorina doesn't preclude you from a (thankfully unsuccessful) run for public office.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/30502091/Portfolio_s_Worst_American_CEOs_of_All_Time?slide=3
     
  7. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    I would agree with this as well, and yet we get Carl Pavano & Kevin Brown.

    So, we shouldn't be shocked when we get shitty CEOs either. It is harder to predict.

    Plus, if you can through a fastball or hit a curveball, you should be able to continue to do it. A CEO faces a constantly changing business landscape.

    Gannett & Yahoo! were companies that faced incredible challenges. I don't think it would be fair to say either of the CEOs mentioned drove their companies of a cliff.
     
  8. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Lest we forget.

    Definition of 'Peter Principle'

    An observation that in an organizational hierarchy, every employee will rise or get promoted to his or her level of incompetence. The Peter Principle is based on the notion that employees will get promoted as long as they are competent, but at some point will fail to get promoted beyond a certain job because it has become too challenging for them. Employees rise to their level of incompetence and stay there. Over time, every position in the hierarchy will be filled by someone who is not competent enough to carry out his or her new duties.


    www.investopedia.com/terms/p/peter-principle.asp#axzz1tpMZPWko
     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Given that we are really talking about public, regulated companies, it's hardly a closed system. In particular, not compared to baseball, which is privately owned, was given an anti-trust exemption others don't enjoy, and still can't seem to manage its finances well, in part because compensation is sometimes decided by owners with stars in their eyes who outbid the marketplace for a star player by way more money than was necessary to get that player.

    I have worked on compensation policy at a large company. At a bank, nonetheless. There was nothing about it that suggested a "closed system." It was worked on for about a year, had to meet the regulatory approval of meddlers in 40+ countries that put contradictory roadblocks in place that complicated how you could even design a cohesive policy, and it had to be communicated to, and accepted by shareholders and potential investors.

    Bonus pools were strictly tied to bank performance. There were clawback procedures in place (which meant holding off a revolt from employees; a key communications initiative), which meant that money paid to them could be taken back if their performance objectives weren't meant--which first makes that money sit beyond your reach for a period of time, and then can make it disappear on you. This included BoD members, and all executives, including the CEO -- who earned an absolute ton of money, but could have had an even greater overall package (with more up front cash included) based on his merits and performance, and took less for PR reasons.

    This was a process that was done privately, yes, with a great deal of thought and input. But once worked out, the way it was communicated to shareholders, who ultimately had to approve, and to regulators who it had to satisfy, and was communicated in printed and online form that is available to anyone, hardly suggests something done behind closed doors.
     
  10. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    What's changed between 1980 & today?

    Folks, the internet is every bit as momentous as the steam engine, the telegraph, the assembly line, the cotton gin, etc.

    Coupled with the modern supply chain, it has allowed for spectacular wealth, and growth for companies that could harness its potential.

    1980 was a really, really shitty time.

    We should be comparing now to the early years of the industrial revolution, if you want a real comparison.
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    That number is AFL-CIO, right? They won't say how they determined it, though.

    Let's assume it is true, though, and continue the conversation.

    How much more than the average worker was a baseball player earning in 1980, and how much more than the average worker is he earning today? It's going to look the same.

    Marvin Miller would argue that the market determines their worth. Competition. Why will people accept that for baseball players -- which they have subjectively determined to be a meritocracy -- but not for running a large company, which they subjectively tell us is a matter of some kind of unfairness?
     
  12. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    www.epi.org/publication/ib331-ceo-pay-top-1-percent/


    Using a measure of CEO compensation that includes the value of stock options granted to an executive, the CEO-to-worker compensation ratio was 18.3-to-1 in 1965, peaked at 411.3-to-1 in 2000, and sits at 209.4-to-1 in 2011.
     
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