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The Economy

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 14, 2020.

  1. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I wonder how much - if any - of this has to do with how we fund the sciences.


    What Happened to All of Science’s Big Breakthroughs?

    Miracle vaccines. Videophones in our pockets. Reusable rockets. Our technological bounty and its related blur of scientific progress seem undeniable and unsurpassed. Yet analysts now report that the overall pace of real breakthroughs has fallen dramatically over the past almost three-quarters of a century.

    This month in the journal Nature, the report’s researchers told how their study of millions of scientific papers and patents shows that investigators and inventors have made relatively few breakthroughs and innovations compared with the world’s growing mountain of science and technology research. The three analysts found a steady drop from 1945 through 2010 in disruptive finds as a share of the booming venture, suggesting that scientists today are more likely to push ahead incrementally than to make intellectual leaps.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05543-x

     
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    A billion dollars is certainly much for a company of that size. Southwest Airlines doesn't earn a billion dollars a year. Not last year. Not this year, when they report the full year. So it's fantasy to talk about them "reinvesting" in infrastructure or a billion dollar price tag not being much. Reinvesting what? It's like someone earning $100K a year talking about "reinvesting" $150K.

    The stock buybacks the company has done have come from borrowing. Billions of dollars of debt that was only available because of a central bank distorting the lending markets for a really long time. It's not just the story of Southwest, it's the story of a lot of misallocated capital that has gone to things like stock buybacks and dividends. And it's really a false choice (if you look at it rationally) to turn it into "stock buybacks" vs. "capital improvements," because they (just as everyone else has) have simply responded to the insane incentives that they have been presented with, and on no planet would spending a billion dollars have made sense from a return-on-investment point of view.

    In real terms, the incentive being dangled in front of companies was money that was cheaper than free and readily available (the market can't calibrate risk when the price of money is being price fixed). In freely trading debt markets, not only wouldn't have those billions of dollars been available to the company in the first place (the idiots who created that environment introduced moral hazard where the risk is shifted from the lender to everyone else, which destroys all lending standards), the company would not have borrowed that much without the risk being implicitly shifted from them to others. But with money being made cheaper than free, they responded the way almost everyone has. ... they took the "free money" and the company's owners pocketed it. The reason they didn't borrow and sink what they borrowed into operations is because there wouldn't have been any return on the investment. It's a fantasy to act like they could have spent a billion dollars (that they don't have) on their business and it paying them back in growth anytime soon. It's precisely why the rationale for disorting the lending markets in the first place -- it's "stimulus"! -- is so misguided. You can make the money available for nothing (and people will gladly take it and put it in their pockets), but unless an investment is going to spur incremental demand that is going to create an even bigger return on investment, it's actually irrational to use the "free money" that way. You are guaranteeing the money gets allocated in a bad way, which is what happened.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2023
  3. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    A billion spread over 20 years, as I said.
     
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    They aren't spreading it out over 20 years. The billion dollars they are talking about is in the coming years' operating plan. It's going to kill the company, but they have no choice at this point. They can either plow on debt to try to fix a mess or they are risking their company's downhill spiral quickening.
     
    Azrael likes this.
  5. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member


    Sorry for the confusion. I thought I was pretty clear. SWA should have spent that billion over a 20-year period to keep their operational infrastructure up to date.

    Having not done so, SWA will now pay not only the billion, but the additional costs of their Christmas collapse, specified here:

    The airline will report a loss in the fourth quarter after canceling nearly 17,000 flights over the holidays, a fiasco that disrupted millions of travelers’ plans and left many stranded for days.

    Southwest said that it will lose up to $425 million in revenue on refunded flights alone. The company will also shell out huge sums to provide frequent flier points to customers and reimburse stranded travelers for their unexpected travel, lodging and food costs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2023
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I mean, it seems clear that they "should have" . ... because of the damage to their business.

    But there are a host of other "should haves" they maybe they could have done instead, too. Maybe if it hadn't done the AirTran acquisition, or if they hadn't expanded into Reagan and Laguardia, or if they hadn't expanded from Dallas and added a lot of new routes. ... their systems would not have outgrown the business (i.e. -- they tried to grow too much, too fast).

    The kind of spending you are talking about may not have been supported by the operating income they generated regardless, in which case the "should have" could very well be. ... that it's just not a viable business and there would have been no sense in putting themselves into debt to spend money that wasn't going to generate any return.

    Where you really lost me, was on the buybacks vs. capital improvements thing. I was just trying to make the point that we have been in a decade and a half very distorted environment in which as a matter of stupid policy, our debt markets were distorted to dangle "free money" in front of businesses. They gobbled it up. If you were an owner of Southwest, your choices likely looked like: 1) Pocket the money, or 2) spend it in a way in which the return on capital in the economic and business environment they were operating in, didn't look nearly as attractive as just pocketing it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2023
  7. Della9250

    Della9250 Well-Known Member

    Southwest reported $277 million profit in the third quarter, after $760 million profit in the second quarter after losing $278 million in the first quarter.

    So with a massive disaster in the final two weeks of the fourth quarter, they are going to profit between $330-340 million for the year.

    For 2021 their profit was $977 million.

    I think they can handle it
     
  8. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I said, specifically

    Without even mentioning those notorious SWA stock buybacks

     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You think that. ... "they" can handle a billion dollars in spending on $977 million of income, eh?

    Thing is. ... You aren't an owner of the company. If you were, perhaps you are the kind of business owner who doesn't really care about things like earning a profit and seeing your ownership stake appreciate in value or about seeing a return on your investment. That's not the reason most people invest their capital, though.
     
  10. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    "They" have to bite that ONE-TIME*** spending now . . . to keep the public from losing faith in the company and having the company's (and shareholders') value crater.

    Once upon a time we called that "investment." Perhaps one of the reasons the company was so profitable was they were ignoring all those pesky upgrades they should have been doing for years.


    ***for however many years/decades it lasts
     
    wicked and Azrael like this.
  11. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    "Investment" isn't some catch-all that necessarily creates magic.

    If you own a store that generates limited business, has competition, etc. ... investing in the business doesn't mean you are ever going to make back that money. Your business might be doomed, but it's not necessarily the fact that you didn't spend the money that doomed it. And if there was not going to be a good return on investment for having spent the money, yeah, you actually end up better off not doing it. ... even when others are Monday Morning Quarterbacking what you should have done because the business starts to fail.

    I honestly don't know if that is the case with Southwest. But I do know that a billion dollars of spending in a company that not only isn't growing earnings, but earns a fraction of what it was earning just a decade ago, is not going to be insignificant to its owners who are looking to. ... make money, not run a public utility based on what people without skin in the game think they can afford.

    At a certain point, Southwest found it difficult to grow the value of the company by growing the business' operations. That is just a fact. They have clearly floundered in trying to find direction for the business, spinning their wheels and making some really bad decisions. ... but I am fairly certain it was not as simple, "If only they had spent on such and such."

    Honestly, the owners of the company almost certainly made more money by controlling costs and using an artificial cheap-money environment to do financial engineering that drove up the stock price, than they were ever going to make trying to compete as an airline. It's been a really crummy industry to be in -- even companies that are better run than Southwest at this point -- if you are trying to actually grow earnings.
     
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