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The Economy

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 14, 2020.

  1. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member


    That's where I'm at. If we're on the verge of global collapse, is that really a world I'm super interested in occupying?

    Nevertheless: When I see someone predicting imminent collapse, I want to see their paycheck and investment portfolio. I'm guessing most lack the courage of their convictions, and are still accepting paychecks denominated in "worthless" dollars and are still invested in all the same financial vehicles (which are all on the verge of total collapse) where the rest of us have parked our money.

    But hey: I could cash out my 401k and turn it all into gold; will I really be able to fortify my personal Fort Knox when the end comes? Won't the marauding hordes just take it from me?
     
    Batman likes this.
  2. Inky_Wretch

    Inky_Wretch Well-Known Member

    Gold, silver, canned goods, water purifiers and ammo. That’s where you go if money is worthless.
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    In my opinion, if you own gold it should be in lieu of keeping any excess savings you have in dollars.

    That wouldn't be money you want to subject to excessive speculative risk over time (which is what most people do with their 401(K) savings). It's money whose purchasing power you want to (hopefully) protect.

    That's how I look at it. I started buying physical gold for $784 an ounce. I wish I had understood what I did then before I did, but it took Ben Bernanke announcing QE1, while our government fiscally was springing TARP on us, for me to understand that they were going to devalue the currency, and therefore make my savings worth less. Bernanke came up with some 2 percent inflation targeting nonsense, too, so it's not like anyone shouldn't have been thinking that way. ... they have now turned that into a matter of "policy," even though 1) the central bank has zero ability to translate their monetary inflation into consumer price inflation with the degree of accuracy they pretend they can, and 2) nobody has ever explained to me how eroding the purchasing power of my money by 2 percent annualized translates to "stable prices," which is their supposed mandate.

    Once I realized what was happened, and watched it continuing as they propped up a debt problem with exponentially greater debt loads. ... I was earning way more money from work than I needed, and rather than letting them inflate away the value of what I could save , I started buying hard assets. ... including physical gold, because it had thousands of years of history as a form of sound money. I even got cute with it, buying gold in euro and yen terms (by hedging currencies) when it made sense, and I proved fairly good at it.

    I don't know about the collapse some of you talk about, or what it actually means. But I do know that if I had those savings in dollars right now, the actual purchasing power of those dollars today would buy me a ton less than when I earned the money. The gold bars I own (way more than I ever thought I'd accumulate) will fetch me way more dollars than I traded to get them. ... so they have protected my purchasing power just the way I posited they would. And that is with gold still being fabulously undervalued in my estimation relative to how much they have grown the money supply because they drove money into speculative, financialized things to the detriment of more tangible, hard assets that I have been drawn to instead. Fear of missing out drives money flows in the kind of environment they created, which is why insane behavior begets more insane behavior.

    If the money supply growth madness ends, or even better if we find some form of sound money that naturally limits the ability to try to inflate away bigger and bigger debt loads, I will get rid of the gold I now own in a nanosecond, and I'll gladly save in dollars instead.

    I hope, for the good of the country (and the world) that happens before a prolonged depression forces it to happen (or worse, we get the depression, but we don't get sound money).

    I'm not hopeful, unfortunately.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
  4. SFIND

    SFIND Well-Known Member

  5. Batman

    Batman Well-Known Member

    I think, at the root of it, this is my gnawing fear right now.
    As you've pointed out for years, the only strategy seems to be to increase the money supply and hold the throttle as long as they can. Ever since COVID hit, they've bolted a cinder block to the accelerator in that regard. I'm not as well-versed in this stuff as you are, Ragu, but it sure seems more and more apparent that we're heading for a prolonged depression (which we might survive) coupled with unsound monetary policy (which we won't survive), with the added wrinkle of the introduction of a new form of money — the CBDC — which will both allow for (and encourage) more unsound and unchecked monetary policy AND give the government a frightening level of control over all areas of the economy that they just royally screwed for a generation to come.

    The one saving grace we've always had, at least for the past 80 years or so, is that the rest of the world has looked to us as the (pardon the pun) gold standard. Our economy is mostly solid, we can project force and step in to solve problems in hot spots around the world. Suddenly, even that is going away and China is moving into that role. Just last week, Saudi Arabia announced a new alliance with Iran, brokered by China. India has moved out of our orbit and into China's. China is trying to step in and negotiate an end to the Ukraine war. We're so worried about China invading Taiwan, and before long they won't have to. They'll be able to take it over without firing a shot.
    All of that is to say, we're about to lose our place as the world's leader and with it the Dollar will no longer be the world's reserve currency. If that happens, I think we are a million times more fucked than we already might be.

    It's the worst of all worlds, and we appear to be right on the precipice of it with no good way to keep from going over the cliff.
     
  6. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    That the whole system crashes every 10 or 15 years should teach us something about the system.

    But it never does.
     
  7. LanceyHoward

    LanceyHoward Well-Known Member

    The Economist reported the 620 billion number also.

    For the non-accountants out there when interest rates rise the value of long-term debt increases. This means the value of long term debt have previously purchased declines.

    Accounting principals allow banks the choice of taking the losses in the current year or classifying the debt instrument as "Hold to Maturity and not taking the loss. Instead they only have to include the loss in the footnotes and keep it off the financial statements. Silicon Valley Bank and most other banks chose not to take the loss but instead just include it in the footnotes.

    So one way someone could have come up with the 620 billion dolalr number is to go through the 10-K's of the banks.
     
  8. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    The apocalyptic nature of many posts here is really something. So far, we haven't even come close to a recession (totally commonplace event in US economic history, happened more than once in the 1950s now lauded as Golden Age by some), let alone a depression. We did see the financial system almost disintegrate in 2007-2009, but guess what? It didn't. There was a lot of IMO avoidable suffering, but the system is still here, warts and all. The main difference I can see about the situation today is that the main suffering is taking place in the declinng prices of financial assets, whose holders have a much louder voice in our society than mere wage earners.
     
    sgreenwell likes this.
  9. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

  10. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    The one thing I'm noticing is there is some irrational fear of a recession happening --- as you say, they are normal occurrances --- so they're doing all kinds of weird, never-been-done-before shit just to keep putting it off.

    The price of THAT being . . . I don't know.
     
  11. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Maybe to avoid sudden inflationary spasms in the wage / price feedback loop like the one we're experiencing post-pandemic, we need to adjust the minimum wage more often than once every forty years.

    Maybe!
     
    OscarMadison likes this.
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I don't know specifically what Economist story you're talking about, but I strongly suspect it was something you read recently (not at the end of 2022 -- why wasn't it being reported THEN?; a number that isn't in the trillions, magically gets thrown out there just as banks are failing?) and it wasn't The Economist saying that there are $620 billion in unrealized loses on bank balance sheets, it was The Economist saying that THE FDIC is saying that.

    I don't think you can go through a publicly-traded bank 10K (or an 8k, which banks put out more often) and come up with a number like that. You'll see a balance sheet, you'll see "fair market values." ... but you won't specifically see what they bought in any detail, when they bought it and what they paid for it.

    Whatever number the FDIC wants to throw at people today can be an ESTIMATE at best. ... and when you get into the realm of estimates, being thrown out by someone whose job is to to shore up confidence in the banking system, is it really meaningful?

    Either way, like I said, the question isn't whether it was $620 billion in unrealized losses at the end of 2022 or more than that. It's what the losses would be WITHOUT interest rate manipulation. If someone doesn't agree with me saying that. ... then they are saying that the whole "stable prices" mandate for the Fed is complete bullshit, because with the CPI still running at 6 percent. ... they should be jacking their overnight rate and aggressively letting bonds roll off their balance sheet, even selling bonds (at the same losses their member banks are on the hook for right now. ... with all of us bearing the cost; the only reason the Federal Reserve itself isn't insolvent is that it can create money out of thn air at the press of a button).

    They won't do that, though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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