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The Economy

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 14, 2020.

  1. Mr._Graybeard

    Mr._Graybeard Well-Known Member

    I don't think we're going to see a repeat of 1929. For one thing, the currency is totally off the gold standard, which was inelastic and produced depression after depression in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as the country industrialized.
    That we could follow in Japan's footsteps is a definite possibility. We've done exactly what Japan did when its '70s-80s growth spurt petered out. At some point the piper must be paid. Reagan tried to put the hammer to "welfare queens" by replacing low-income subsidies with the earned-income credit. The next thing you know, the upper half of the tax table was complaining that they were paying all the taxes. Well, duh.
    The bottom line is that income taxes must be raised. I'd love to see significant spending cuts as well. But the country is undertaxed, that's for sure.
    One of the sacred cows of entitlements is Social Security. When my wife took a lump-sum buyout from her company, I was surprised to discover that SS taxes were capped at something like $110K. That's ridiculous -- in some parts of the country that's a middle-class income. Jack it up to half a mil, and make the outlay progressive. That'll never happen, of course, because the wealthy would throw a shitfit if they didn't get every ounce out of the system.
     
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    How exactly did the gold standard produce depression after depression? I can't wait to hear this.
     
    doctorquant likes this.
  3. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member

    Beat me to it.

    Was it really any better back when a boat full of gold could sink, sparking a depression?
     
    doctorquant likes this.
  4. Mr._Graybeard

    Mr._Graybeard Well-Known Member

    Study up on the Panic of 1873, very much related to coinage of precious metals. Gold also played a large part in the Panic of 1893. In both cases, the basis of precious metals prevented the government from digging the country out of an economic trough (the condtion was actually worldwide, but other industrialized countries shared the same constraints). As a result, the resulting depressions lasted for years.

    Western farmers in the 1890s tried to get Washington to inflate the economy by ordering the free coinage of silver. Williams Jennings Bryan is still rememberd for his "Cross of Gold" speech.

    FDR saw the limitations of gold-based currency and reduced it greatly in 1933 after the country had been mired in years of economic contracti0n.
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Booms and busts in modern times have always been caused by government interventions in money markets. A depression is a bust, obviously. The booms usually came from either the U.S. Treasury (before the creation of the Federal Reserve) or Federal Reserve meddling with the money markets in ways that artficially increased the amount of credit (or leverage). Those credit booms precipitated every financial panic in modern times you can point me to. Name a boom-bust cycle. ... any of the financial panics, the great depression, etc. and there was a similar mechanism behind it.

    This trope that the gold standard somehow caused the depression (although even John Maynard Keynes would laugh at this), not human hubris and stupidity, comes about because the gold standard limited the ability of the Federal Reserve to devalue the currency initially during the Great Depression (until FDR took us off the gold standard anyhow in 1933) to try to increase exports and try to artificially grow our way out of the mess. Going off the gold standard (which did happen) didn't end the depression either, FWIW.

    This is not that difficult a concept, even though people spin themselves like tops about it for some reason. The price of money is the interest rate to borrow. Whenever the U.S. Treasury, and the Federal Reserve after it was established in 1913, have done things to try to put a price ceiling on interest rates to try to make money easy, it has had the effect of borrowing from the future for an artificial boost in the present. They make money too cheap, which has often led to runaway speculation of one type or another that a free market with price discovery has incentive to keep in check. Think the roaring 20s, for example, that preceded the depression. The short-sighted booms they spur lead to environments ripe for panics, and those panics then lead to credit busts (the leverage they enabled unwinding in a messy way). The gold standard never had a thing to do with any of those boom-bust cycles, unless the contention is that after we acted stupidly, we needed to act even more stupidly by destroying the currency to try to deal with it.
     
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Oh, and the panic of 1873 was largely precipitated by the runaway speculation (on the back of huge leveraged bets) in railroads that began after the Civil War. The bubble burst in 1873.
     
  7. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member

  8. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    This never works for me. If I am hung way over, a four-Bloody Mary regimen doesn't work any better than a three-Bloody Mary one.
     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, the sinking of the USS Central America sparked a panic. But that boat didn't cause the financial crisis. That panic was yet another of the "speculative ferver in railroad (and gold mining) stocks" taking down banks that had made huge (and very bad) loans. That boat would have brought a very large shipment of gold that might have bailed some of those banks out. So when it sank, it dashed those hopes and panic ensued.
     
  10. Mr._Graybeard

    Mr._Graybeard Well-Known Member

    Railroad bonds had an impact domestically. But the depression following the Panic of 1873 extended throughout the Western World, it was not just limited to the US (at the time a relatively minor player in the global economy). The economic collapse occurred first in Europe, which also based its economies on gold and, to a degree, silver. They had their own inflationary stimuli, but when the bubble popped, their treasuries did not have the resources to rescue their economies. The result was years of depression.

    Two issues regarding the gold standard: while governments maintained coinage more or less consistent per capita in the 1800s, it could not account for the increase in individual productivity that was under way as industrialization occurred during the late 19th century. As a result, the money supply failed to expand with the growing economy. Hence, structural deflation.

    Second, most businesses historically have operated with some amount of debt. But even a moderate amount of debt can become unsustainable when money is in short supply. Consider the number of farmers who lost their homes in the Great Depression (and in the years leading up to it). These weren't speculators, they were families trying to eke out a living. But they had to borrow to put a crop in the ground. That was the case for my grandfather, who lost his farm to creditors in 1928.

    Certainly the Fed's pumping up of the economy has gone on far too long. It probably should have ended, to put a number on it, about 2013, once the emergency the Fed caused under Alan Greenspan had largely passed. I agree that we are now in a hole we must dig out of a la Paul Voelker.

    BTW, if you want to see deflation at work in the here and now, consider Bitcoin. Its supply is finite, and it has gone in value from $1 to $33,000. El Salvador has adopted it as its national legal tender; it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Explain to me why the money supply has to expand with a growing economy.

    Is it because the price of most things decreasing over time, and the standard of living increase that corresponds to it in a growing economy, hurts people?

    What exactly is the evil of "structural deflation"?
     
  12. Mr._Graybeard

    Mr._Graybeard Well-Known Member

    Say you're in the business of making widgets. Or, say you're a farmer, raising corn. You go into the enterprise thinking you can sell your product for $x. But when the time comes to sell what you've made, the market only allows you $x-2.

    Meanwhile, you borrowed $20x to buy equiment and supplies to make widgets. You have to pay installments on that loan, which does not diminish just because deflation has rendered the dollar more valuable and your product cheaper.

    You hired a person at $1x a day to help you produce your product. But it turns out the work they're turning out is costing you money. That person gets laid off.

    The worker has a mortgage to pay, but can't make payments anymore because they're out of work.

    You may consider borrowing money to get over the rough patch, but banks are loath to lend. Even worse, some depositors lost faith in banks and started a run on the place until it became insolvent and closed. Also, the value of your property is less than when you took out the original loan on it.

    For a person with a lot of money and no debt, deflation is great. For a business that seeks to grow, deflation is a red light. That's why the Fed has a goal of maintaining inflation in the low single digits -- it encourages economic growth.
     
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