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Thoughts and Prayers: The Religion Thread

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Slacker, Oct 15, 2019.

Page 24 of 225
  1. heyabbott

    heyabbott Well-Known Member

    If Holy water is false so if transubstantiation. And if that’s false the entire religion is based lies and false theology. The Catholic Church is thus no different than the Masonic Lodge
     
    heyabbott, Mar 5, 2020
    #277
  2. heyabbott

    heyabbott Well-Known Member

    Proof that god doesn’t exist. Pediatric cancer hospitals, famine, rape, starvation, floods, hurricanes, trump, Hitler, Caligula...
     
    heyabbott, Mar 5, 2020
    #278
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Maybe proof that a god you personally desire and a world you wish you inhabited doesn't exist for you. But given that your understanding of a lot of things is no better than mine, the reality is that neither of us know (or can prove) if there is a god or multiple gods or some other cosmic force that explains things we don't understand, and perhaps things we can't even see or comprehend, or purposes for things that neither of us really understands.

    One thing I do know about bad things and human suffering is that they form our experience. You could never really know happiness without knowing sadness. Otherwise everything would just be a constant state of. ... well, stasis that didn't seem all that special. To truly understand something that tastes amazing (for example), you need to be able to experience something that tastes horrible. And my guess is that those yings and yangs are key to our experience. But that is me spitballing, not saying it "proves" anything.
     
    The Big Ragu, Mar 5, 2020
    #279
  4. justgladtobehere

    justgladtobehere Well-Known Member

    You are making the argument that I described in my last post. You cannot create the possibility that something exists simply by asking others to disprove its existence. When you set up this prove/disprove dichotomy you are begging the question. The underlying premise of the possibility of having a debate or resolution of the issue is incorrect because one side can never be proven wrong by observation or objective evidence.
     
    justgladtobehere, Mar 5, 2020
    #280
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    No. I am not "creating the possibility that something exists." That posibility exists WITHOUT my involvement. Possibilities always exist. All any of us can do is hypothesise about things. And that is what science does. You make a hypothesis about something. ... and then you test it as rigorously as you can. ...and if the evidence doesn't support your hypothesis, it is logical to reject it.

    BUT. ... that does NOT mean you have disproven it. It means tha twith our current knowledge and experience, there is no reason to accept it. What I was really saying, not what you are paraphrasing me as having said, is that a hypothesis is never really proven true or untrue. POSSIBILITIES always exist. All we have is a preponderence of evidence based on our experiences in testing our ideas at any given time.
     
    The Big Ragu, Mar 5, 2020
    #281
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Just to expand. ... Let's say 900 years ago, there was a guy telling another guy that there were these huge reptiles that had inhabited the earth millions of years ago. Just a guess. He couldn't prove it, though, and the other guy said, "That's nuts."

    Let's say that same guy said, "Humans can fly -- way high in the air, thousands of miles without touching down. There is a contraption possible that can make it so." Same response, "That's nuts."

    Just because everything in the second guy's experience made it logical to reject those claims doesn't mean that they weren't POSSIBLE, or that his lack of evidence proved them FALSE.
     
    The Big Ragu, Mar 5, 2020
    #282
  7. justgladtobehere

    justgladtobehere Well-Known Member

    By claiming something that is unfalsifiable exists, you are creating the possibility. In essence, your position is that people can make any assertion and if I can't disprove it, it becomes possible and there is validity to the assertion. If you claim is that validity of an assertion is a matter of a certain level of evidence, again it is impossible to argue against. What constitutes evidence? How much is enough to allow for the possibility? The person arguing for existence sets all the rules and debate is tilted in his direction.

    Stating a 'hypothesis is never really proven true or untrue' is a logical stretch. Even the most fundamental principles of this universe might someday be found to be untrue is some circumstance or place. But that doesn't mean all hypotheses have the same validity or worthiness of debate.

    Even the use of the term 'hypothesis' is a problem. It is used to suggest some scientific or logical basis and structure to the argument. But you cannot appeal to some part of the scientific method and then proceed to abandon all other elements.
     
    justgladtobehere, Mar 5, 2020
    #283
  8. justgladtobehere

    justgladtobehere Well-Known Member

    Those are physical phenomena, different from god. Those beliefs did not come from the ether. People found strange bones and logically went about finding out what they were. People saw birds flying and worked towards mankind being able to do so. The concepts and fundamentals that underlie knowledge of dinosaurs and ability to fly had a physical basis in the world prior to the time those beliefs existed, let alone were proven. Nobody was going around thinking about dinosaurs before finding dinosaur bones. Man was inspired to fly because he saw other animals in flight.

    This argument has no boundaries. Anything is theoretically possible on some level. But we usually require a bit of evidence before the theory is developed and considered credible.
     
    justgladtobehere, Mar 5, 2020
    #284
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    1) Where did I "claim that something that is unfalsifiable exists"? I didn't post anything like that anywhere.
    2) Don't tell me what I said "in essence." Please stick with what I am actually saying rather than putting words into my mouth.
    3) I have no idea why you are trying to argue with me. ... But maybe it's impossible to argue with me, because you keep putting words into my mouth, and I keep telling you I didn't say what you are attributing to me and you keep coming back to put more words into my mouth? NO, I did not say that because someone asserts something, and it can't be disproven, therefore the assertion is valid. If that is your understanding anything I posted, you aren't arguing with me. I never said anything close to that.
    4) A hypothesis CAN'T ever be proven or disproven. This is just factual. There are ALWAYS going to be an alternative POSSIBLE explanation for anything you can observe, even alternatives we may not even be aware of with our level of understanding. You learn this in junior high school science. Absolute certainty by humans is NOT scientific.
    5) I am not appealing to "some part of the scientific method." My posts were trying to (maybe unsuccesfully) to describe THE scientific method for dealing with ideas or theories. ... which form hypotheses, to put it more correctly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
    The Big Ragu, Mar 5, 2020
    #285
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    My point was that the level of understanding 900 years ago didn't mean that things people couldn't see or prove at the time were "false."

    You just told me that something we NOW know is true. ... well, obviously that is different. But something that we don't know (whether god or some cosmic force) exists, comes "out of the ether." That is why I took you back to a time when the things we NOW know are true would have seemed unbelievable.

    You finished the post. ... by actually giving me a short version of what I have said, without realizing that you are agreeing with it. Yes, ANYTHING is possible. And yes, the BEST we can all do is work with the evidence we have to evaluate the credibility of anything.

    Just because something doesn't seem credible to you (or me or anyone) based on the evidence we have in this time and place with our current level of understanding, though, doesn't mean that it is false or it has been proven one way or the other.
     
    The Big Ragu, Mar 5, 2020
    #286
  11. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    First, I'm a Christian.

    Second, holy water is made up even by Biblical standards. As an object in some bottle, it's not in the Bible. Water is consistently used as a metaphor. It is a metaphor used in baptism - but baptism in and of itself is a metaphor. It doesn't have literal properties.

    If anything, this is a comprehension/interpretation problem. Or, if you prefer, the problem of people making shit up because props - like the later indulgences, which were also made up - helped exert control.
     
    Alma, Mar 5, 2020
    #287
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  12. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    A genuine atheist, in my experience, is a believer in something, but waiting to be convinced of it. A genuine atheist is actively looking for gods, like an explorer, to answer questions of good and evil.

    But there are plenty of disingenuous atheists, mostly in the "west," where the need for a creative, authoritative being isn't clear because of the comfort and decadence of society.
     
    Alma, Mar 5, 2020
    #288
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