Ukraine Always Get What You Want

What I'd really like to know is did some Army level S4 say "don't worry! we've got all the logistics sorted!" or did they say, "hey guys cool if you want to go, but we're not really ready ..."

 

Why wasn't Ukraine made a member of NATO, last week? Maybe because, as with this whole situation, we're afraid of making Putin mad?

Because that very possibility of Ukraine joining the EU and/or NATO is one of the main reasons Putin wants control of the country in the first place -- so that that can't/won't happen. It might even be THE main point of this whole conflict. If Putin and Zelensky ever sit down to real negotiations, I guarantee that will be all but a non-starting point for Russia.

Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much reason why Ukraine could not be in NATO, or any reason why it could not happen just as quickly as the current nearly global economic shutdown of Russia did.

Requirements to join NATO

• New members must uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity.
• New members must be making progress toward a market economy.
• Their military forces must be under firm civilian control.
• They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.
• They must be working toward compatibility with NATO forces.

It looks/sounds to me like Ukraine fits the bill for membership just fine, and if its not being a NATO member is the only reason nothing more direct is being done to help, well, then it's a poor excuse in light of this.

 

Ukraine is bordered by 4 NATO members.

And member nations seem to have some discretion when it comes to discussing their security with other members.

Article 4

The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

So there's a plausible reason to at least engage the notion that NATO increase its alert level in response to Putin.

Then suggest a ceasefire and invite Putin to a "peace" summit at which his territorial paranoia can be negotiated.

 

If NATO gets directly involved, Putin probably won’t retaliate with a nuclear launch. But when the downside risk is the effective destruction of civilization, “probably” isn’t enough to go on. Why is that so damn hard for armchair strategists to understand?

 

A turkey-shoot.

 

Yeah, it's Beau again. There are a number of perceptive observations here. For instance, that a million Ukrainian refugees fleeing into Europe will strengthen ties with the NATO countries over time. They didn't want a NATO country on their border? This move is pushing Finland and Sweden there. Good stuff.

 

I don't think NATO gets directly involved. No one actually launches a NATO counterstrike; or tries to impose a No-Fly zone. But sanctions and yacht seizures aren't nearly enough to back Putin down in the near term.

You need some military leverage to get him to agree to a ceasefire before he kills a lot of people. I think. We'll see.

 

If a forty mile long column of armor, troops, and supplies gets shot all to shit, yeah, that goes in the L column for sure.

The Russian army isn't covering itself in glory this go around.

 

I would not be in the least surprised to see Europe come out of this with more agreement on acting in concert for the defense and economic security of all. A more functional Euro zone. I think this changed some views.

 

NC, my reading was the column was four miles wide and the numeral was lost in translation.

I watched Troy last night (long a guilty pleasure) and parallels are striking. But the Greeks of course prevail after initially getting their shit pushed in.

 

I'll never forget my right-leaning uncle proudly showing RT on his Roku back in 2015 like he was telling us about some hidden gem restaurant that no ones knows about. "Can you believe they don't tell us about this in America?" Yeah, because it was mostly nonsense.

RT America ceases productions and lays off most of its staff - CNN

 

Would it really be smart of the Russians to give guns to a whole bunch of people who hate them?