Ukraine Always Get What You Want

This is an excellent post, Bubbler, and exactly what everyone is grappling with right now.

I actually agree with a lot of it, despite my opposing viewpoint regarding the humanity and principles that I think should be fought for and supported, to maximum extent. I don't think we'd be fighting a war for our reputation, per se. It would be more for our ideals/principles. Those things, and reputation, are not the same, despite this country's world standing.

The key word you used regarding the wiping out of humanity is "potentially." We don't actually know what would happen if we or any other country acted more directly on Ukraine's behalf. We're all trying to predict, but we don't know.

And what you, and many others, are suggesting is not just a change in morals. It is, essentially, an elimination of them. So, it is everyone for themselves, now, no matter what? And yes, forget about humanity, or morals, or anything else that holds society together?

Because, as I wrote in my previous post, the world is in a position, with the threat/risk of nuclear weapons, that will never change now.

By Putin's way of thinking, and that of any despot, really, that's a license to, essentially, do whatever they want, take whatever they want, etc. -- all because we can't take the chance to damn the consequences/nukes.

If Putin were doing what he's doing to Ukraine, to the U.S., what would/should we do? Would we allow it? Would we be stopped short of crushing Russia by the fear of a nuclear attack then? Would we use a nuclear weapon again? What kind of support or response would we hope for, or expect, from the rest of the world?

 

Interesting how the nuclear question has people tangled up.

Again, we've been navigating and negotiating in a nuclear world since 1949.

If Putin attacks NATO, will we refuse to respond on the same basis? Because he has nukes?

Can any nation with a nuclear arsenal do whatever the fuck it wants?

If nuclear capability is a foreign policy get-out-of-jail-free card, we've really lost the thread of the last 75 years.

 

If you think "sanctions" are working, here's the thing: Europe is still mulling and considering.



Ukraine Live Updates: Europe Considers Cutting Off Russian Coal as Moscow Denies War Crimes

 

Hey! Another meeting! The great powers are all in a conference room down the hall!


https://www.washingtonpost.com

 

Meanwhile: 4684 war crimes.



Russia-Ukraine war: Donetsk governor claims Russia fired on aid distribution point; Pope condemns ‘massacre of Bucha’ – live

 

I think that's the job description for dissidents and activists.

 

I know. I guess this difference is the entire nation wasn't able to watch it daily on the news.

 

... until Germany declared war on the United States after Pearl Harbor.

 

If anyone were inclined to look through my computer searches of late, they'd probably be a little concerned -- maybe even disturbed.

Because I've realized that we're all probably talking about nuclear weapons without actually having much real knowledge in the way of details, or more modern, updated information, and such, and so, I've attempted to educate myself a bit, particularly about what it would take to actually start a nuclear attack.

Like, does a nuclear bomb have to actually be dropped, like those that were on Japan? Does somebody only have to actually "push a button," as we all tend to say? (No). How far ranging would effects be of one, two or three nuclear weapons? Who, in the world, actually has them now? (Several more countries than just the U.S. and Russia). Has there been any nuclear-weapon activity since the U.S. drops on Japan (Yes, hundreds of tests, in a lot of places). And only one country (South Africa) has developed, and then dismantled, its nuclear weapons because they are such hot potatoes. Etc.

We truly have been living with this issue for many years now, and probably, without a lot of people even really grasping the extent of it.

Here's a short article I found interesting regarding the authority/process in place regarding nuclear weapons, and the thinking behind it, at least here in the U.S.:

What Is the Nuclear ‘Button’ and Where Did It Come From?

 

In a weird way, I'm less nervous about the US vs Russia nuclear threat than I am in the India vs Pakistan or India vs China threat. Yeah, North Korea, but North Korea.

Also a good resource for actual scope of damage
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Even if one bomb doesn't destroy the world, I don't want hundreds going off either, which would actually be kind of a big deal especially with radiation fall out.

 

Heretofore unseen upside to suggestions from pointy headed types suggesting Ukraine surrender some territory to obtain peace with Russia: Give Texas and Arizona to Mexico. Border problem solved!

 

Plus Mexico City is bound to have a better arena for the Coyotes than freaking ASU.