UVA and the alleged frat rape - Rolling Stone backpedals

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

The reason people don't want to say Jackie might have made this up, and I suspect will be hesitant to go there even if the story falls apart more, is that it's such an emotional issue. It's never cast as questioning this one specific story, it's cast as questioning all women who report a sexual assault. And while that's admirable to want to be protective, maybe even understandable considering how few sexual assaults do get reported, it's also woefully unfair. As you said earlier in this thread, PW2, let's say Jackie is making this up entirely. Well, that probably means she has some serious mental health issues going on. I'm not going to sit here and want to destroy a woman who has those kind of issues. It's not like she contacted Rolling Stone and said "I have a story I need to tell you about this horrible gang rape." Erdley found her, and clearly had to coax her into talking, as evidenced by the deal she had to cut to keep Jackie from withdrawing cooperation (I won't contact the alleged rapists). And that's why Rolling Stone is the one who really screwed up here. Maybe this happened, maybe it didn't. Either way, considering the conditions Jackie put on who could and could not be interviewed, it's clear this was not the story for Rolling Stone to use for its campus rape expose. Sometimes you just have to walk away from a story when it doesn't add up. That's hard to do, maybe even harder when you're freelancing and your editor is frustrated you can't nail it down, but look at the alternative.

I love the Times, but they've made two HUGE missteps with campus sexual assault stuff to really be a credible voice in this. The Patrick Witt/Yale quarterback stuff was truly bullshit. They straight destroyed that kid's chance at a Rhodes Scholarship and a job after graduation based on the thinnest of evidence possible. And the Duke lacrosse stuff was just as terrible, the way they threw all their weight behind that story (because, again, it pushed a lot of buttons), and then took the stiff upper lip approach when it turned out to be complete fabrication. The two professor quotes in that UVA piece are essentially saying the same thing Erdley saying "You're really not focusing on what matters here."

Yuck.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

I think most of what you said is pretty dead-on. I hope that someone finds a delicate way to raise the possibility that she's lying about this. I'm certain someone will.

That said, I'm not convinced that Erdely had to coax her into talking too hard. That's part of the dance, maybe, but a reluctant person, I don't think, usually dishes that kind of exacting, clearly well-prepared material.

There's a potentially much simpler explanation for why Jackie was so hell-bent on Erdely not pursuing the offenders: They don't exist. It didn't happen.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

The problems with the story aren't really as huge as some are making them out to be.

Was Jackie raped? Rolling Stone seems to think so and that's backed with an army of reporters, editors, fact-checkers and lawyers who all got enough verification to go forward with the piece. Those opposed to the piece claim the rape is an outright fabrication, but that's their gut telling them that. They haven't done any reporting or checking, outside of, perhaps, a few minutes of googling.

Did the events happen exactly the way as described in the piece. Again, Rolling Stone seems to think so. Some of the opposition to the piece seem to be focusing on the finer points in the reporting (shards, scars, etc) and not really the substance of the claim.

Does Jackie's story pass muster with the University and law enforcement. They are investigating but, at least in the university's case, they seem to think that the broader story of rape is correct, while the details remain murky.

Does UVA have a rape problem? That also appears to be very much the case.

Has the university handled rape cases poorly, if at all, in the past? That also appears to be the case.

As for some of the criticisms, my favorite was the one where the George editor thought it was beyond the pale that a man would punch a woman and then laugh about it. I guess a man hitting a woman just seems crazy or something.

For those who are hung up on not knowing Jackie's name or the last name of Drew, the alleged rapist. Please tell me that last name of Jay in the Serial podcast. But in that case it is "trust the process" those people know what they are doing.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

Isn't the Jameis Winston case everything this one is supposed to be?

Meanwhile, folks are calling for UVa to shut done their frats, while FSU's football team continues its quest for a national championship.

And, if we're shutting down institutions that encourage/allow a rape culture to exists, can we start with Hollywood studios?

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

Yes, they are.

Please detail for us your evidence that Rolling Stone deployed an "army of reporters, editors, fact-checkers and lawyers" to verify this piece.

Well, that and a lifetime of reporting, as well as being a human being. And a few hours spent reading the 1990 book referenced here entitled "Fraternity Gang Rape."

Most recently, Sabrina Ederly has said that "something happened" in "that room," but she can't be sure what.

Those are supporting details, yes, the sum of which lead to the conclusion that the substance of the claim did not occur.

Which of their hyper-lawyered public statements makes you believe that's the case?

No. He thought that it was beyond the pale that a man would punch a woman and seven men would laugh about it. It is.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

I think we'd need to hear Jackie tell her story without the assistance of Erdely.

If the story she told Erdely is the one Erdely wrote in Rolling Stone, then I think the odds that she is lying are pretty high. There are too many things in the story that are just plain false -- Drew's employment as a lifeguard, the absence of a party on the night in question, the fact that frats don't rush in the fall, etc.

If it turns out Erdley stretched/changed the story for greater impact (or to provide some anonymity, which is the likely excuse she will use), then there might be a fire that is responsible for all this smoke.

And, even then, it might be a he said/she said situation, where consent is in question.

What is sort of interesting is that so far, no one has admitted to anything, not even consensual sex.

And, if it did happen as described, you know the students involved would be under tremendous pressure to be the first to cut a deal.

The silence is pretty deafening.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

Can we discuss the idea that UVa has a "rape problem"?

The idea that even one woman would be raped upsets me to no end. So, if the standard is one rape, or one rape that is poorly handled by the authorities, then yes, UVa has a rape problem.

But, compared to what institution is UVa's problem greater or lesser?

Does Hollywood have a rape problem? Does the fashion industry have a rape problem? Does the law enforcement profession have a rape problem? What about the teaching and coaching professions?

I'm all for taking every accusation deadly serious. Victims should be treated professionally, and with empathy. Every measure should be taken to reduce the fear and embarrassment that comes with reporting a sex crime. And, Universities should certainly involve local law enforcement in any investigation from the get go.

But, in a community of 21,000 kids between the ages of 18-23, where alcohol and sex are a big part of the experience, you are going to have instances where the question of consent is raised. That's unfortunate, but it shouldn't be surprising.

People acting like they are shocked this is happening at UVa, and like it's somehow different than what is happening at similar Universities are kidding themselves.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

He was a freshman in the fall of 2012. Since frats at UVa don't rush until the spring, that means he wasn't a member or a pledge at the time of the incident.

(And, btw, schools where frats do rush in the fall are insane. Kids are just getting settled in, adjusting to their new circumstances, and should be concentrating on their classes. Instead, they are busy searching for a frat to join, and don't even have the time to make a proper decision.)

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

According to Erdely's story, this was a pledge initiation ritual, which is one of the holes in the story.

And to your second, tangential point, it's kind of crazy, yes. I went through that. On the other hand, second semester rush just turns into semester-long rush.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

I don't know the customs at UVA but at many schools, where you have only have spring rush, students wanting to join up, spend the fall semester in a tryout period where you get invited to parties and events at the house and are essentially a pledge just not in name.

The fraternities like it that way as it absolves them of some liability issues and cuts down on recruitment expense. My best guess is that UVA does something similar.

Even if it turns out to be true and that UVA has a systemic rape crisis it won't mean the end of fraternities there. The Greek system is too important to the university and long-term alumni relations to just scrap it. Also, many fraternities have made major investments into campus life along with structures and housing. My fraternity's national headquarters is there and was also founded at UVA.

BTW, schools that have full rush, at least the ones I'm familiar, have their main events during the summer. Upper classmen working off legacy lists, letters of recommendation from alumni and word of mouth from members meet with students and if they pass muster then, they get invited to a summer event. There they meet up with upper classmen and alumni. If they don't catch a black ball, they get pinned the first week of school.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

Pretty hard to admit to consensual sex when only one party is identified.
We know 'Jackie' exists.
'Drew,'on the other hand, and the guy she knew from her class and the other frat guys???? There's scant evidence any of them exist.

 

Re: Rolling Stone on rape at UVA

Fox News will now be on top of this story like Al Sharpton at Ferguson.