What - No GOP Presidential Debate Thread?

"So why not go back to 1632 as your starting point for the Vietnam War? Events that happened well before the Vietnam War don't change the fact that it was Kennedy and not any president before him, who sent American troops in, and LBJ who sent even more American troops in (and turned it into a full-scale disaster) and Nixon who kept the war going for a while (possibly to help his reelection) before putting an end to the mess."

Sorry, but this is threadbare, as I said. 1632? Please. The "event" that I describe -- the proposed countrywide elections in 1954 that Eisenhower nixed --happened a whole eight years before Kennedy sent in his advisers, and did indeed commit the US (by SEATO treaty) to the defense of South Vietnam. (We had advisers there with the colonial French, by the way, and to train the nascent ARVN and that was in the mid 1950's. American combat involvement in Vietnam did not begin with Kennedy. It did, however, get infinitely worse.)
And Thompson's argument is more delay, more obfuscation, and more of the same. Partition will work approximately as well as it did in Northern Ireland, except we'll be the Brits and there will be three sides trying to kill us.

 

OK, go back to Truman. I don't care.
But your Churchill argument is still off point for the reasons I gave. Truman and Eisenhower were responsible for decisions that led directly TO the war. Churchill's cobbling the Iraqi nation together that is the root cause for the civil war. Saddam -- and, before that Faisal -- kept the nation together. It's the fact that we intervened and let the genie out of the bottle.

 

Imagine you've just been told you were solely responsible for the deaths of 58,000 human beings... would you give a shit about any nuanced soliloquies that followed this accusation?

 

You guys are talking about Vietnam? Seriously?

 

"Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

 

Only 2 senators voted against Tonken Gulf resolution. One of them was Wayne Morse

check out this quote from morse. Too bad more did not listen.

"I believe that history will record that we have made a grave mistake in subverting and circumventing the Constitution of the United States....I believe that within the next century, future generations will look with dismay and great disappointment upon a Congress which is now about to make such a historic mistake.''

 

William Fulbright was the principal figure in the passage and Richard Russell was the key senator in promoting escalation and support for the war. Both wildly inconsistent. Fulbright made a U-turn and Russell warned of a land war, when he more than anyone worked to secure legislation to prosecute it.

You have to start with Tonkin before you really start anywhere else. That's your flashpoint.

 

The week of Tonken Gulf incident LBJ was having trouble with his Haggar slacks. It may have hampered his ability to think clearly.