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What - No GOP Presidential Debate Thread?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Point of Order, May 3, 2007.

Page 13 of 15
  1. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    Ideal example of the Johnson Treatment, he was quoted as saying at the time of the resolution's passage, "I didn't just screw Ho Chi Minh, I cut his pecker off."

    More hobby horse stick riding from the Texas plains.
     
    Herbert Anchovy, May 9, 2007
    #145
  2. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    "A penny saved is a penny earned."
     
    Guy_Incognito, May 9, 2007
    #146
  3. Point of Order

    Point of Order Active Member

    Yup! Unfortunately, it's back to our regularly scheduled Vietnam pissing contest. It's not that it's not important, it's that no one's opinions are going to change at this point.

    Honestly, has anyone over the age of 40 shifted their fundamental views on Vietnam in the past 5 years?
     
    Point of Order, May 9, 2007
    #147
  4. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    I would think Robert McNamara's views have shifted slightly.
     
    Herbert Anchovy, May 9, 2007
    #148
  5. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    From his memoirs:

    "We of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who participated in the decisions on Vietnam acted according to what we thought were the principles and traditions of this nation. We made our decisions in light of those values. Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why. I truly believe that we made an error not of values and intentions, but of judgment and capabilities."
     
    Herbert Anchovy, May 9, 2007
    #149
  6. Ben_Hecht

    Ben_Hecht Active Member

    At least Mac had the moral fiber to write that.

    You'll get old waiting for any similar mea culpas from the current clown collection.
     
    Ben_Hecht, May 9, 2007
    #150
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Point, I'd guess attitudes toward Vietnam have shifted dramatically over time, actually. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone today who doesn't look back on it as an unmitigated disaster. That wasn't the case at the time--even if there was a strong anti-war sentiment. As prominent as the anti-war crowd was, the nation was still somewhat split. I remember reading a story a few years ago comparing attitudes toward Iraq at the time (2004 or 2005?) and Vietnam at its height in 1970. In 1970, something like 50 percent of people polled thought the U.S. should get the hell out of Vietnam within the next 12 months... which meant 50 percent thought we should prolong the war and not retreat in defeat. I don't think most people view the Vietnam War that way in hindsight. In hindsight, they'd say we should have never gotten involved or that we should have pulled our troops well before then. It's sort of the same thing with Iraq. When we invaded, Joe Sixpack thought we were going to march in, conquer the place in a day and a half and give a good show of American military might. Easy peasy. Support for the war was strong. It's the fact that it hasn't gone well that has shifted opinion for most people, not the perceived righteousness (or unjustness) of the cause. If anything, I think Vietnam is very relevant. As bad as things are going in Iraq, it isn't quite the disaster Vietnam was (yet, at least), yet support for Iraq has really flagged. This isn't like 1970, when the evening news was showing body bags every night, yet 50 percent of the public thought we should keep fightinga losing cause. Support for Iraq is likely tempered negatively by the memory of Vietnam. If more people didn't think "Vietnam is old news, let's just move on" perhaps the memories would have kept us out of Iraq altogether. Maybe, maybe not. I think 9/11 stirred up such rabid feelings that it made people's memories short. Without 9/11, I believe the memory of Vietnam would have weighed heavily on people's willingness to stomach a random war.

    But I do think each of these wars have had an impact on the American consciousness and we can only benefit by continuing to rehash them. We shouldn't move on completely. My bet is with Vietnam and Iraq in the rear view mirror sometime in the future, the American public will be even less likely to stomach another military intervention somewhere else without VERY GOOD reason. And that is because people will be talking about their impacts, not trying to forget about them.
     
    The Big Ragu, May 9, 2007
    #151
  8. Point of Order

    Point of Order Active Member

    OK Rags, that's fine, but I bet if you started an official "Vietnam re-hash" thread it would die a quick death.

    It's a different topic altogether than Boom_71's "58k Americans dead at the hands of Dem presidents" lie.
     
    Point of Order, May 9, 2007
    #152
  9. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    "An apple a day keeps the doctor away."
     
    Guy_Incognito, May 9, 2007
    #153
  10. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat the ninth grade.
     
    Herbert Anchovy, May 9, 2007
    #154
  11. Yawn

    Yawn New Member

    Key thing to remember about Vietnam when thinking ahead about Iraq.

    After it was over, after the shit hit the fan and the country was turned into a bunch of skeletal skull gardens, 60 Minutes sent a crew with the first Americans to go back to Vietnam - don't remember exactly how long, but it was in the 80s. I remember several in that contingency talking about the eye-raising excited looks they got from people asking "Are the Americans coming back?"

    The good people in Iraq will be saying the same thing one day.
     
    Yawn, May 9, 2007
    #155
  12. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    One day . . .

    Ah, the argument that can never be lost.

    Because it will be won . . . one day.

    But in the present, I know of 2 million Iraqi refugees who aren't glad America is in Iraq (they're in Syria, Sweden, etc.).

    And the corpses of the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed since 2003 aren't glad America is in Iraq.

    And the hundreds of thousands of family members of the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed since 2003 aren't glad America is in Iraq.

    But one day . . . right, Yawn?
     
    BTExpress, May 9, 2007
    #156
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