When will Joe get Yank-ed out of the South Bronx?

I always hate that there always has to be a fall guy and Joe Torre is going to be it.

If that happens, the tiniest last vestige of respect I ever had for "Da Boss" will be gone. Who would they get to replace him that could propel this bunch farther? A new manager isn't going to be able to magically heal all of the injuries in the rotation. And I doubt anyone but Torre could successfully navigate the treacherous waters of all of those egos and of course, dealing with "Da Boss."

Another reason it sucks is that Torre is such a great guy. If you can't play for Joe Torre, you don't deserve to play in the league. I've never heard a single player ever dog out Torre and that says a lot. His enlightened leadership is a big reason why the Yankees have been so successful in recent years.

 

That's not completely true. Gary Sheffield and Ruben Sierra both dogged him on the way out.

Which, in turn, proves your original thesis correct.

Torre and Cashman are not getting fired this season. What good will that do Steinbrenner? If he fires them, he loses his whipping boys.

 

Torre's enemies in Tampa are whispering in Steinbrenner's ear, suggesting that another manager could get this flawed, old bunch going.

 

The Mets and Yankees have traded places. The Yankees are the team trying to hold on with their expensive pickups, and the Mets have actually (gasped) developed some decent players and traded for a few more. I'm wondering how long it is before George decides to sign Bobby Bonilla and Vince Coleman.

 

Wicked, that is a fairly solid assessment at the end there. The Yankees are old and beat up. The team is comprised of players that are on the downside of their career with years left on their contract.

- Damon is losing his legs. His speed is leaving him and in sports your legs are everything.
- Matsui is pulling the ball all of the time. He's now grounding into double plays. He's also turned into a real shitty outfielder.
- Abreu is in a monster slump. It is possible that he'll snap out of it. It was pointed out that it is a contract year. That is usually when players become super-stars.
- Giambi has also lost his legs. He can't play the field, not that he ever really could.

So what can you do with these players? You can't really trade Matsui, you'll lose all of that Japanese revenue. Who in their right mind would take on Damon or Giambi? Right there you are talking about ~$60million in revenue tied up in aging players that will never be what they were.

I also don't expect this to change as Posado and Rivera have their contracts come to an end after this season. Posada could get a new deal with the Yankees and prove to become Damon.

The pitching is no longer the problem. They seem to have turned that around and are getting solid starts (I exempt Saturday due to the fluke of having another pitcher ending up with broken bones on a FOX broadcast game). Clemens won't save them, and potentially adds to the list of aging players collecting monster contracts.

I am not sure if this is the year that the Yankees miss the playoffs, but it is certainly possible.

 

this is an aging Yankees team. If Clemens pitches close to what he did in Houston the past three years (and he didn't get run support last year) that will probably be good enough to get the Yankees to the playoffs. Perhaps they can catch lightning in a bottle, but they probably aren't a good playoff team.

About the only thing I would disagree with Pastor on as far as the offensive players is Matsui. Hitting into double plays is usually a function of hitting the ball hard right at somebody. I think Matsui is a great clutch hitter and I think he is underrated.

As for who is making the decisions? I always suspect Billy Connors as having influence.

 

Gold, you're a logical guy, so please explain how you believe Clemens, who will get roughly 25-30 starts, can get the Yankees to the playoffs. It's not like he's an everyday player. He's a pitcher. He won't pitch often enough to be able to make a difference, to my way of thinking. Let's day he wins 12 games. What does that cut the deficit to?

I could be wrong, I realize that. I just don't see Clemens making enough of a difference by himself.

 

I think conventional wisdom is wrong her. First, in terms of pitching depth, think how deep they've had to go (plus Snchez & Ohlendorf who got injured too), and they did so, relatively credibly without resorting to a Lima or Ponson. That's young, ML ready-ish depth. There is SP talent below this as well.

The poor construction of the roster, I blame more on Torre than Cashman, but this is a small issue. Torre has always been terrible at putting together a bench, always choosing the worst possible offensive players. He is also a terrible handler of a bullpen, which makes his relievers seem worse than they actually are.

The Yankees are still paying for what was a disastrous decision (and IMO, obviously so at the time) to invest in RJ, at the cost of cash and players instead of Beltran on discount. That led to them thinking they had to overpay (years & money) for Damon. Matsui is fine, Cano will probably be as well. The 1b situation was predictable - Phelps was actually a nice pickup, & would be a valuable bench player backing up a major league 1b, which they don't have. This was an error of Womackian proportion, and was so easily forseeable, that Torre & Cashman deserve to have this held against them. Despite last year's unfortunate tenure, I'd bring in the recently released Craig WIlson to see ifhe has anything left, and be calling every GM in baseball to try & get a 1B, particularly Seattle who have shown that they enjoy being ripped off.

What was the question again?

 

He won't but Clemens & Hughes instead of minor leaguer of the week X2, will allow them to capitalize on the games when their offense wakes up, which most of them will.

 

I see Clemens as a rather counter-productive move. The guy pitched well when he was pitching in the NL. The automatic outs that existed there are non-existent in the AL. What was seen last night, a 6-inning performance (which should have been 7), will not occur. Clemens will go 5-innings. The relief pitchers will need to pitch more.

Gold, my criticism of Matsui is in the way he is hitting. Last night he had a single to the left. However, up to that point, he wasn't interested in letting the pitch dictate his swing. He was constantly pulling the ball. As such, he was grounding into double plays or just grounding into outs. He is also getting older becoming increasingly worse in the outfield.

Torre is someone that values experience of youth. This is why Sheffield gets shuttled into the line-up despite Melky Cabrera's performance. His theory is that Abreu has been a .300 hitter so he will always be a .300 hitter. The reality is that Abreu should have been benched for more than 1-game.

 

Casty: If Petitte does well and Wong is OK and Mussina is healthy, that is probably four starters in a rotation which should win 88 to 90 games. If they win 60 or 65 percent of Clemens starts, that certainly is better than whomever the number four or five starter would be. I would also rather have Clemens pitch a playoff game than Randy Johnson. These starters hopefully can get to the sixth and seventh innings, and the bullpen doesn't burn out. It would take some of the burden off the bullpen, and the Yankees should have enough offense to make the playoffs. Torre can handle the pitching staff better.

I note that I used the words if and probably.

I wouldn't say for certain that they are one of the four best teams in the American League because I think the AL Central will be really tough. But I think the Yankees can win 90 games and that should be enough for the playoffs. I don't think they are a good playoff team, because they seem pretty weak defensively.

Pastor: I agree with you that Abreu should have been benched for more than one game. I know Matsui has hit into more double plays lately, but having followed him for the past couple of years I think he is a great clutch hitter.

I don't know that I agree that Clemens will be a five-inning pitcher. I think he will go into the seventh several times. Look, I'm not taking time off in October to plan to watch the World Series, but I think without Clemens the Yankees would have little chance of the playoffs. I think the reaction of the players to the Clemens signing was a positive indication.

 

I don't think this works. The question is, for 5, 6 or 3 innings, who else would be pitching them? Do you expect DeSalvo to go deep into games? Karstens when he gets back? They will need their bullpen (not as much as they use it, but some) on those days anyway. If Clemens gives up less runs than the alternative for the time he's out there, the move is productive.