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RIP Joe Frazier

Quakes said:
Nice piece by Richard Hoffer on si.com: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/richard_hoffer/11/06/joe.frazier/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2

And, because everyone should read this at least once, Mark Kram's story on the Thrilla in Manila for SI (the last few paragraphs of which are, on this day, a nice tribute to Frazier): http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1090341/index.htm

I remember reading Kram's article and was in awe. Until I read Michael McCambrige's history of SI. Kram was a fabulist.
Kram spent the week in Manilla shacking up with a women he just met and later married. Kram was not at the banquet he described in the story. And read somewhere else that no one has been successful in confirming the scene in the bedroom where Frazier is quoted as describing Ali as a great champion. Kram said someone told him about it. Kram wrote the story off the notes of a Newsweek writer and from interviewing his photographer.

Kram is a really gifted writer but buyer beware.
 
Now that we've seen it all, ESPN deserves a salute for hauling out a lot of their unseen SportsCentury stuff on this one. They had by far the best coverage of Frazier's passing.

Met him once, years ago when I working in Philly, and was amazed at his demeanor. Always kind of thought of him as a sour guy, but he wasn't at all. He was a really nice, engaging guy. A very funny man, actually.
 
Scribbled_Notz said:
Now that we've seen it all, ESPN deserves a salute for hauling out a lot of their unseen SportsCentury stuff on this one. They had by far the best coverage of Frazier's passing.

Met him once, years ago when I working in Philly, and was amazed at his demeanor. Always kind of thought of him as a sour guy, but he wasn't at all. He was a really nice, engaging guy. A very funny man, actually.
Joe was a good guy. You can't say that about everyone you meet, but he was.
 
Frazier would have hated this AP article about his funeral since it focuses a lot on Ali.

A quick count shows 12 mentions of Frazier and 10 of Ali and four of the first six paragraphs are about Ali.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/boxing/story/2011/11/14/sp-frazier-funeral.html?cmp=rss

With his championship belt and a pair of gloves draped over his casket, Joe Frazier was going one more round.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson asked mourners to rise, put their hands together and for one last time "show your love" for the former heavyweight champion.

Muhammad Ali obliged.

Wearing a dark suit and sunglasses, a frail and trembling Ali rose from his seat and vigorously clapped for "Smokin' Joe," the fighter who handed Ali his first loss.

Ali was among the nearly 4,000 people who packed the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church for a two-hour "joyful celebration" of Frazier's life. He died last week of liver cancer; he was 67. Also attending were former heavyweight champion Larry Holmes and promoter Don King.

His body ravaged by Parkinson's disease, Ali was accompanied by members of his family and wife, Lonnie, who rubbed his back while he was seated and held his hands as he entered and left the church.
 
MTM said:
Frazier would have hated this AP article about his funeral since it focuses a lot on Ali.

A quick count shows 12 mentions of Frazier and 10 of Ali and four of the first six paragraphs are about Ali.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/boxing/story/2011/11/14/sp-frazier-funeral.html?cmp=rss

With his championship belt and a pair of gloves draped over his casket, Joe Frazier was going one more round.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson asked mourners to rise, put their hands together and for one last time "show your love" for the former heavyweight champion.

Muhammad Ali obliged.

Wearing a dark suit and sunglasses, a frail and trembling Ali rose from his seat and vigorously clapped for "Smokin' Joe," the fighter who handed Ali his first loss.

Ali was among the nearly 4,000 people who packed the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church for a two-hour "joyful celebration" of Frazier's life. He died last week of liver cancer; he was 67. Also attending were former heavyweight champion Larry Holmes and promoter Don King.

His body ravaged by Parkinson's disease, Ali was accompanied by members of his family and wife, Lonnie, who rubbed his back while he was seated and held his hands as he entered and left the church.
AP's story sucked but let's face it, when you cover a funeral, you write about the people who show up. I thought it was a nice gesture on Ali's part.
 
Muhammad Ali was a great champion, and one of the 2-3 greatest boxers ever, but, yeah, he could be cruel when it suited him. I recall reading about when he fought Floyd Patterson in 1966 (or maybe it was late '65). In the pre-fight run-up, Floyd insisted on calling him Cassius, and Ali spent the whole fight doing just enough to punish Patterson without knocking him out, the whole time barking, "What's my name, Floyd? What's my name?" The ref finally stopped it in the 12th round.

I think Frazier got under Ali's skin because Smokin' Joe wasn't the least bit intimidated by Ali, and appeared to be immune to Ali's verbal barbs. One thing that always puzzled me, though, was why George Foreman never had any trouble with Frazier in the ring. Maybe I just missed it, but I've never seen that explained to any degree.
 
Drip said:
MTM said:
Frazier would have hated this AP article about his funeral since it focuses a lot on Ali.

A quick count shows 12 mentions of Frazier and 10 of Ali and four of the first six paragraphs are about Ali.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/boxing/story/2011/11/14/sp-frazier-funeral.html?cmp=rss

With his championship belt and a pair of gloves draped over his casket, Joe Frazier was going one more round.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson asked mourners to rise, put their hands together and for one last time "show your love" for the former heavyweight champion.

Muhammad Ali obliged.

Wearing a dark suit and sunglasses, a frail and trembling Ali rose from his seat and vigorously clapped for "Smokin' Joe," the fighter who handed Ali his first loss.

Ali was among the nearly 4,000 people who packed the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church for a two-hour "joyful celebration" of Frazier's life. He died last week of liver cancer; he was 67. Also attending were former heavyweight champion Larry Holmes and promoter Don King.

His body ravaged by Parkinson's disease, Ali was accompanied by members of his family and wife, Lonnie, who rubbed his back while he was seated and held his hands as he entered and left the church.
AP's story sucked but let's face it, when you cover a funeral, you write about the people who show up. I thought it was a nice gesture on Ali's part.

I thought William C. Rhoden had a nice column off the funeral:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/sports/william-c-rhoden-frazier-more-than-alis-foil.html
 
albert77 said:
Muhammad Ali was a great champion, and one of the 2-3 greatest boxers ever, but, yeah, he could be cruel when it suited him. I recall reading about when he fought Floyd Patterson in 1966 (or maybe it was late '65). In the pre-fight run-up, Floyd insisted on calling him Cassius, and Ali spent the whole fight doing just enough to punish Patterson without knocking him out, the whole time barking, "What's my name, Floyd? What's my name?" The ref finally stopped it in the 12th round.

I think Frazier got under Ali's skin because Smokin' Joe wasn't the least bit intimidated by Ali, and appeared to be immune to Ali's verbal barbs. One thing that always puzzled me, though, was why George Foreman never had any trouble with Frazier in the ring. Maybe I just missed it, but I've never seen that explained to any degree.

Immune to Ali's barbs? Have you ever read anything about the two?

From Nack's SI story in 1996...

He has known for years of Frazier's anger and bitterness toward him, but he knows nothing of the venom that coursed through Frazier's recent autobiography, Smokin' Joe. Of Ali, Frazier wrote, "Truth is, I'd like to rumble with that sucker again—beat him up piece by piece and mail him back to Jesus.... Now people ask me if I feel bad for him, now that things aren't going so well for him. Nope. I don't. Fact is, I don't give a damn. They want me to love him, but I'll open up the graveyard and bury his ass when the Lord chooses to take him."
Nor does Ali know what Frazier said after watching him, with his trembling arm, light the Olympic flame: "It would have been a good thing if he would have lit the torch and fallen in. If I had the chance, I would have pushed him in."

---

And Frazier? He felt manipulated, humiliated and betrayed. "He had me stunned," Frazier says. "This guy was a buddy. I remember looking at him and thinkin', What's wrong with this guy? Has he gone crazy? He called me an Uncle Tom. For a guy who did as much for him as I did, that was cruel. I grew up like the black man—he didn't. I cooked the liquor. I cut the wood. I worked the farm. I lived in the ghetto. Yes, I tommed; when he asked me to help him get a license, I tommed for him. For him! He betrayed my friendship. He called me stupid. He said I was so ugly that my mother ran and hid when she gave birth to me. I was shocked. I sat down and said to myself, I'm gonna kill him. O.K.? Simple as that. I'm gonna kill him!"

---

The only thing that remained the same was Frazier's incandescent animus toward Ali, unappeased by his victory in '71. Five days before the second fight, sitting together before a national TV audience on ABC, they were discussing the first bout when Frazier referred to Ali's visit to the hospital. "I went to the hospital for 10 minutes," Ali shot back. "You went for a month."

"I was resting," Frazier said.

"That shows how dumb you are," Ali said. "People don't go to a hospital to rest. See how ignorant you are?"

Frazier had not had much formal schooling, and Ali had touched his hottest button. "I'm tired of you calling me ignorant all the time," snapped Frazier. "I'm not ignorant!" With that, he rose and towered over Ali, tightening his fists, his eyes afire. When Ali's brother, Rahaman, rushed to the stage, Frazier turned to him and said, "You in this too?" Here Ali jumped to his feet and grabbed Frazier in a bear hug. They rolled off the stage and onto the studio floor, and Goodman remembers Frazier holding one of Ali's feet and twisting it, like the head of a chicken, while Futch screamed, "Joe! Joe! Don't twist off his foot! There won't be a fight."

----

In 1988, for the taping of a film called Champions Forever, five former heavyweight title holders—Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Larry Holmes and Ken Norton—gathered in Las Vegas. A crowd of people were at Johnny Tocco's Gym for a morning shoot when Frazier started in on Ali, who was already debilitated by Parkinson's. "Look at Ali," Frazier said. "Look what's happened to him. All your talkin', man. I'm faster than you are now. You're damaged goods."

"I'm faster than you are, Joe," Ali slurred. Pointing to a heavy bag, Ali suggested a contest: "Let's see who hits the bag the fastest."

Frazier grinned, not knowing he was back in the slaughterhouse. He stripped off his coat, strode to the bag and buried a dozen rapid-fire hooks in it, punctuating each rip with a loud grunt: "Huh! Huh! Huh!" Without removing his coat, Ali went to the bag, assumed the ready stance and mimicked one Frazier grunt: "Huh!" He had not thrown a punch. He turned slowly to Frazier and said, "Wanna see it again, Joe?" In the uproar of hilarity that ensued, only Frazier did not laugh. Ali had humiliated him again.

After the shoot, at a luncheon for the fighters, Frazier had too much to drink, and afterward, as people milled around the room and talked, he started walking toward Ali. Thomas Hauser, Ali's chronicler, watched the scene that unfolded over the next 20 minutes. Holmes quietly positioned himself between Ali and Frazier. "Joe was trying to get to Ali," Hauser says, "but wherever Joe went, left or right, Holmes would step between him and Ali. Physically shielding him. Joe was frustrated. After about 10 minutes of this, Foreman walked up to Larry and said, 'I'll take over.' " So for the next 10 minutes Frazier quietly tried to get around 290 pounds of assimilated Big Macs. At one point Frazier leaned into Foreman, but Foreman only leaned back. "Keep it cool, Joe," Foreman whispered. "Be calm."

Ali had no idea this was going on. "He was walking around like Mr. Magoo," says Hauser. "He was oblivious."

While Frazier's hostility toward Ali was well known to the fight crowd, it was not until his book came out last spring that he look his venom public. When Phil Berger, who wrote the book, began interviewing Frazier last fall and heard what he wanted to say about Ali, he warned Frazier of the damning impact it would have. "Ali's become like a saintly figure," Berger said.

Too bad, the fighter replied. "That's the way I feel."


There is no way Frazier was immune to Ali's barbs. He hated Ali because of them. Hated. Ali.


I am surprised Ali was allowed to attend the funeral.
 
That's good stuff, Evil. Very good stuff.

I guess what I meant was that so many fighters in that era let themselves be lured into the role of Ali's patsy, and they were beaten before they ever got in the ring with him. Joe refused to take the bait, let Ali's noise go in one ear and out the other, then got in the ring and went toe-to-toe with him, and Ali didn't like it.

But, obviously, there was a lot of simmering resentment that came out after they were done fighting. So, in the end, I guess he wasn't immune.
 
Yeah, he wasn't immune at all. Frazier lived his entire life with a distaste for Ali.
 
Boxing is a fraternity. There may be hatred but they all share a common bond. The death of a champion such as Joe Frazier shows that.
 
albert77 said:
Muhammad Ali was a great champion, and one of the 2-3 greatest boxers ever, but, yeah, he could be cruel when it suited him. I recall reading about when he fought Floyd Patterson in 1966 (or maybe it was late '65). In the pre-fight run-up, Floyd insisted on calling him Cassius, and Ali spent the whole fight doing just enough to punish Patterson without knocking him out, the whole time barking, "What's my name, Floyd? What's my name?" The ref finally stopped it in the 12th round.

I think Frazier got under Ali's skin because Smokin' Joe wasn't the least bit intimidated by Ali, and appeared to be immune to Ali's verbal barbs. One thing that always puzzled me, though, was why George Foreman never had any trouble with Frazier in the ring. Maybe I just missed it, but I've never seen that explained to any degree.

In addition to Patterson, I think Cleveland Williams also kept referring to Ali as Clay, and also got punished for it.

It was considered a very controversial thing back then when Ali changed his name, especially in the context of the Black Muslims and the '60s. It wasn't a joke to mock Ali, and he took it very personally, hence, the beatings he gave to Patterson and Williams.
 

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