30 for 30 running thread

[Stoney]

But whoa, whoa, whoa...

A 25-year-old Ali would have destroyed a 25-year-old Holmes. Holmes was a great fighter, but Ali was so much faster. It would not have even been a contest.

There's no way to ever know, but I'm not so certain I agree. Holmes is probably the most underrated champ ever and, because he was so charismatic and such a historical figure, I think Ali might be a tad bit overrated.

Although I acknowledge this ain't scientific and the fights occurred at different junctures of their respective careers, but a review of how they did against their three common opponents sure doesn't hurt Larry's case:

Ali went 1-1 against Leon Spinks, and the fight he won went to a 15 round decision. Holmes knocked Spinks out in the third round in a crushingly one-sided beating.

Ken Norton beat Ali in 1973 at the absolute apex of his career skillwise (although Ali did avenge that loss in their next fight in a split decision). Holmes beat Norton when he was reigning champ and took his belt in their only fight.

Earnie Shavers gave Ali one of the harshest physical beatings of his career in a fight he barely lost in a close 15 round decision. Holmes went 2-0 vs. Shavers, once by knockout and once by decision.

 

[Steak Snabler]

Thought this was great -- also didn't think that Ali came off like the a-hole that others here did.

I don't think Ali comes off as an ashhole, but his hubris in believing he still had it isn't terribly sympathetic. He had people warning him it was dangerous, but he thought he was indestructible.

I think the problem was that nobody in the camp would tell him to quit. Isn't that why Pacheco left Ali's camp? Because he insisted that Ali stop and didn't want to sit and watch when he didn't.

Shoot, at the end of the fight, didn't Cosell say it was Bundini Brown screaming at Dundee not to stop it?

To answer your questions, yes and yes. As it turned out, Pacheco missed only the 1981 Trevor Berbick fight, which was Ali's last.

And based on Bundini's demeanor in the documentary, it seems he wanted Ali to beat Holmes worse than Ali did.

 

[Steak Snabler]

But whoa, whoa, whoa...

A 25-year-old Ali would have destroyed a 25-year-old Holmes. Holmes was a great fighter, but Ali was so much faster. It would not have even been a contest.

There's no way to ever know, but I'm not so certain I agree. Holmes is probably the most underrated champ ever and, because he was so charismatic and such a historical figure, I think Ali might be a tad bit overrated.

Although I acknowledge this ain't scientific and the fights occurred at different junctures of their respective careers, but a review of how they did against their three common opponents sure doesn't hurt Larry's case:

Ali went 1-1 against Leon Spinks, and the fight he won went to a 15 round decision. Holmes knocked Spinks out in the third round in a crushingly one-sided beating.

Ken Norton beat Ali in 1973 at the absolute apex of his career skillwise (although Ali did avenge that loss in their next fight in a split decision). Holmes beat Norton when he was reigning champ and took his belt in their only fight.

Earnie Shavers gave Ali one of the harshest physical beatings of his career in a fight he barely lost in a close 15 round decision. Holmes went 2-0 vs. Shavers, once by knockout and once by decision.

Holmes suffers because the heavyweight division had lost a lot its star power by the time he became champ. Ali, Frazier and Norton were all past their prime, Foreman had quit the game to become a minister and Tyson and Holyfield were not yet on the scene.

Holmes' only real competition was Michael Spinks, who was basically a bulked-up middleweight.

Speaking of middleweights, that was the division where it was at in the 80s. Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Hearns --- that was a golden age for that weight clash.

 

[Pancamo]

But whoa, whoa, whoa...

A 25-year-old Ali would have destroyed a 25-year-old Holmes. Holmes was a great fighter, but Ali was so much faster. It would not have even been a contest.

There's no way to ever know, but I'm not so certain I agree. Holmes is probably the most underrated champ ever and, because he was so charismatic and such a historical figure, I think Ali might be a tad bit overrated.

Although I acknowledge this ain't scientific and the fights occurred at different junctures of their respective careers, but a review of how they did against their three common opponents sure doesn't hurt Larry's case:

Ali went 1-1 against Leon Spinks, and the fight he won went to a 15 round decision. Holmes knocked Spinks out in the third round in a crushingly one-sided beating.

Ken Norton beat Ali in 1973 at the absolute apex of his career skillwise (although Ali did avenge that loss in their next fight in a split decision). Holmes beat Norton when he was reigning champ and took his belt in their only fight.

Earnie Shavers gave Ali one of the harshest physical beatings of his career in a fight he barely lost in a close 15 round decision. Holmes went 2-0 vs. Shavers, once by knockout and once by decision.

Holmes suffers because the heavyweight division had lost a lot its star power by the time he became champ. Ali, Frazier and Norton were all past their prime, Foreman had quit the game to become a minister and Tyson and Holyfield were not yet on the scene.

Holmes' only real competition was Michael Spinks, who was basically a bulked-up middleweight.

Speaking of middleweights, that was the division where it was at in the 80s. Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Hearns --- that was a golden age for that weight clash.

Except the Duran-Leonard and Hearns-Leonard where fought at welterweight.

 

[Steak Snabler]

But whoa, whoa, whoa...

A 25-year-old Ali would have destroyed a 25-year-old Holmes. Holmes was a great fighter, but Ali was so much faster. It would not have even been a contest.

There's no way to ever know, but I'm not so certain I agree. Holmes is probably the most underrated champ ever and, because he was so charismatic and such a historical figure, I think Ali might be a tad bit overrated.

Although I acknowledge this ain't scientific and the fights occurred at different junctures of their respective careers, but a review of how they did against their three common opponents sure doesn't hurt Larry's case:

Ali went 1-1 against Leon Spinks, and the fight he won went to a 15 round decision. Holmes knocked Spinks out in the third round in a crushingly one-sided beating.

Ken Norton beat Ali in 1973 at the absolute apex of his career skillwise (although Ali did avenge that loss in their next fight in a split decision). Holmes beat Norton when he was reigning champ and took his belt in their only fight.

Earnie Shavers gave Ali one of the harshest physical beatings of his career in a fight he barely lost in a close 15 round decision. Holmes went 2-0 vs. Shavers, once by knockout and once by decision.

Holmes suffers because the heavyweight division had lost a lot its star power by the time he became champ. Ali, Frazier and Norton were all past their prime, Foreman had quit the game to become a minister and Tyson and Holyfield were not yet on the scene.

Holmes' only real competition was Michael Spinks, who was basically a bulked-up middleweight.

Speaking of middleweights, that was the division where it was at in the 80s. Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Hearns --- that was a golden age for that weight clash.

Except the Duran-Leonard and Hearns-Leonard where fought at welterweight.

And yet all four held the world middleweight title at one time or another ...

 

[DanOregon]

I don't know if this is the intent of the 30 for 30, but the first four have all dealt with loss: Oilers losing Gretzky, Baltimore losing the Colts, the demise of the USFL, Ali losing to Holmes, and now Len Bias losing his life.

I'm not knocking it - considering that every game has a winner and a loser, there are probably better stories in the losers than the winners, yet the winners probably get 85 percent of the ink.

 

[bumpy mcgee]

You only do a 30-for-30 on us when we lose?

 

[93Devil]

But whoa, whoa, whoa...

A 25-year-old Ali would have destroyed a 25-year-old Holmes. Holmes was a great fighter, but Ali was so much faster. It would not have even been a contest.

There's no way to ever know, but I'm not so certain I agree. Holmes is probably the most underrated champ ever and, because he was so charismatic and such a historical figure, I think Ali might be a tad bit overrated.

Although I acknowledge this ain't scientific and the fights occurred at different junctures of their respective careers, but a review of how they did against their three common opponents sure doesn't hurt Larry's case:

Ali went 1-1 against Leon Spinks, and the fight he won went to a 15 round decision. Holmes knocked Spinks out in the third round in a crushingly one-sided beating.

Ken Norton beat Ali in 1973 at the absolute apex of his career skillwise (although Ali did avenge that loss in their next fight in a split decision). Holmes beat Norton when he was reigning champ and took his belt in their only fight.

Earnie Shavers gave Ali one of the harshest physical beatings of his career in a fight he barely lost in a close 15 round decision. Holmes went 2-0 vs. Shavers, once by knockout and once by decision.

It's very tough to compare them because their common foes were fought at different points of their careers.

I just think Ali's feet would have ran around the Holmes' jab.

I also think Holmes' size and jab would have handled Norton and Foreman much easier than Ali did, but Frazier would have given Holmes serious problems.

And for ships and giggles, Ali beats Tyson, but I don't think Holmes' would have kept Tyson off of him and Larry would have lost badly.

 

[Stoney]

And for ships and giggles, Ali beats Tyson, but I don't think Holmes' would have kept Tyson off of him and Larry would have lost badly.

The 87-89 version of Tyson? Can't say I agree. Tyson was fairly analogous to a quicker and harder hitting version of Joe Frazier, and Frazier delivered a brutal beating to Ali in his prime when he won their first title fight in 71 (which Ali later avenged in the Thrilla in Manilla).

And there's no "would" with Holmes/Tyson, because Tyson DID kick the ship out of Holmes. They fought once, remember? But of course that was a way over the hill Holmes who'd been retired for a couple years until he came out to fight Tyson in his absolute prime. So it didn't tell us much.

 

[93Devil]

I'm trying to envision all of these guys fighting when they are 25 or 26.

I think the Ali that "fought" Liston was fast enough to keep a young Tyson off of him.

It's all pure bar room speculation, but it's fun.

I am happy to see Holmes doing well and not broke from supporting 28 cousins. If he fought in the 1970s, he would be much, much more famous.

 

[Lugnuts]

I don't know if this is the intent of the 30 for 30, but the first four have all dealt with loss: Oilers losing Gretzky, Baltimore losing the Colts, the demise of the USFL, Ali losing to Holmes, and now Len Bias losing his life.

I'm not knocking it - considering that every game has a winner and a loser, there are probably better stories in the losers than the winners, yet the winners probably get 85 percent of the ink.

Huh. Interesting. I think there are some on the horizon that wouldn't fall into that category... Something on Reggie Miller and the Knicks ?? And something on The University of Miami. I'm still looking forward to The Greek.

 

[Steak Snabler]

The Marcus DuPree one, which airs some time next year (I'm guessing around recruiting signing day) is what I'm looking forward to. Guy's a mythical figure in my home state.