More DMN updates

[Frank_Ridgeway]

OK...so, great, Classifieds are not paying the frieght any longer...they used to. I think that's the point you are missing. They started giving the ads free last year, yet they didn't for the previous 138 years the Union Trib has been in business.

So, let's see is it more likely the author of the above is looking forward for The DMN or historically, which you seem to be. History's over, which way are we going now?

You took issue with the author's knowledge based on this? So let's say he got this one wrong, he must certainly have gotten the other four correct...wouldn't you say?

It never paid the freight, except at the Auto Trader. Your average 100K daily was running about eight pages of classified against 30 pages of display advertising in an 80-page paper during classifieds' heyday. A major metro maybe 10-12 pages against 40 or 50 pages of display in a 100-page paper, probably 20-40 pages of classified on Sundays in a 200- to 280-page paper. An nice source of revenue, yes. The most important source -- paying the freight -- NEVER. And there are newspapers such as the NYC tabs that run only a few pages of classified per day -- a very insignificant part of the revenue. Even in the 1980s when Dallas led the nation in full-run classified advertising, the revenue was dwarfed by display advertising revenue. You make more money per page on classified, but there are many fewer pages and very few premiums for color or for high-profile positions like back pages and centerspreads.

A fundamental lack of understanding of what brings in the money in this business does make me skeptical about anything he writes, yes. And makes me think you know absolutely nothing about the biz.

 

[oldhack]

Whether classified paid the freight (whatever that means) is beside the point. It was hugely profitable, and newspapers like DMN, LAT and Houston Chronicle that had big classified sections rolled in dough. In the 80s, the DMN regularly ran 80-page real estate class sections on Saturdays and Sundays. The rest of class (jobs, autos, etc) was in other huge sections. What sustained the DMN in its war with DTH was classified, where the News had a 58 percent market share in the early 80s and the two papers were even in display. That apparently is all gone. LA Times regularly ran 32-48 pages of class daily. One day last week it ran 10. Display has taken huge hits with department stores merging and folding, but there have been a few new display categories (cell phones, for one) to ease the blow. The point with classified is that nothing has replaced it. That's in large part why DMN just got rid of 120 people and LAT has cut its news staff from 1,300 to something like 930.

 

[lone star scribe]

So the problem with newspapers' financial stability is copy editors making a living wage at 60K after 10-20 years in the biz? Why does it not surprise me that this theory is proffered by a media owner?

 

[gandhithegreat]

OK...so, great, Classifieds are not paying the frieght any longer...they used to. I think that's the point you are missing. They started giving the ads free last year, yet they didn't for the previous 138 years the Union Trib has been in business.

So, is it more likely the author of the above is looking forward for The DMN or historically, which you seem to be. History's over, which way are we going now?

You took issue with the author's knowledge based on this? So let's say he got this one wrong, he must certainly have gotten the other four correct...wouldn't you say?

It never paid the freight, except at the Auto Trader. Your average 100K daily was running about eight pages of classified against 30 pages of display advertising in an 80-page paper during classifieds' heyday. A major metro maybe 10-12 pages against 40 or 50 pages of display in a 100-page paper, probably 20-40 pages of classified on Sundays in a 200- to 280-page paper. An nice source of revenue, yes. The most important source -- paying the freight -- NEVER. And there are newspapers such as the NYC tabs that run only a few pages of classified per day -- a very insignificant part of the revenue. Even in the 1980s when Dallas led the nation in full-run classified advertising, the revenue was dwarfed by display advertising revenue. You make more money per page on classified, but there are many fewer pages and very few premiums for color or for high-profile positions like back pages and centerspreads.

A fundamental lack of understanding of what brings in the money in this business does make me skeptical about anything he writes, yes. And makes me think you know absolutely nothing about the biz.

OK...let me satisfy your argument, I don't know anything about the biz and the author of this piece is wrong about the classified revenue. I'll give it to you...say nothing more about it...

then the rest of his assertions you would agree are right on. It's time for a fundamental shift in management...

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

then the rest of his assertions you would agree are right on. It's time for a fundamental shift in management...

The author is a career magazine guy. He needs to sell one issue per month, not 31. I don't think his ideas would work. I don't think running two pages of national/international news is going to satisfy people in Dallas, a major city where a lot of people are engaged in international trade.

 

[gandhithegreat]

then the rest of his assertions you would agree are right on. It's time for a fundamental shift in management...

The author is a career magazine guy. He needs to sell one issue per month, not 31. I don't think his ideas would work. I don't think running two pages of national/international news is going to satisfy people in Dallas, a major city where a lot of people are engaged in international trade.

OK, now we got something.

First, because he's a magazine guy, that disqualifies him as a critic? That's the culture that exists in this "biz" I know nothing about. If you don't like what someone says, you spin, spin, spin. For most in the "biz" these days, it's all about what happened in the past. It's all about copy guys earning $60K and working there 18-20 years, going for 35.

I have no problem with earning $60K and putting in long hours and mileage, in fact I think most copy guys should be earning more and working more...but I do have an issue with the complacency that tends to follow this and the sense of entitlement. What more do shareholders (owners) owe desk guys? Moreover, what more do shareholders owe Publishers and Senior Management? That's an even better question.

In this biz, you ask professional team owners to put the best product "show" on the field. In return, you sell some papers based on coverage on those teams. What makes a newspaper immune from putting the best product on the "field." Sometimes you just need some re-building years. And in this climate, shifting your focus to understand how The Dallas Morning News will survive 5-, 10 and 20 years down the road is what improves stock pricing and jobs for the future generations.

My experience at The News: no one gave a shirt about the future generations, just what they were "entitled" to.

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

When he doesn't understand something as basic as where the bulk of our money comes from, that disqualifies him as someone whose opinion I'm going to respect. You don't have to have played baseball in order to cover the sport, although it helps, but you do need to make the effort to learn how things work before baseball people are going to show you any respect. No doubt he would feel the same way if I were telling him how to run a magazine. Readers might not understand he doesn't know what he's talking about, but we do.

I've worked on and competed against papers that tried some of the things he suggests, like all-local. Doesn't work well. Readers want one-stop shopping.

What makes the newspaper biz completely different than the magazine business is that in magazines you can do very well serving a niche as long as the demographic is good enough, and you can publish with a very small staff. In the world of large newspapers, you have to serve an extremely diverse audience in order to support a newsroom numbering in the hundreds.

 

[gandhithegreat]

More on the topic:

Read Jacques' debut today....not bad. At least he started with a topic that can produce a lightning rod. The QB situation at Texas is always a big story, especially the one following Vince Young.

Might I suggest as other controversial topics:

--the fact that the game has passed Bill Parcells by.

--the fact that Tom Hicks should sell or move the Rangers.

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

--the genius of Jerry Jones selling out 10 straight season without delivering another Super Bowl or playoff victory.

And I hope he doesn't think it slipped by, but you've got to figure he is going to work the Ohio State victory into his first column....forking homer ;D

 

[steveu]

Pure and simple, if the Rangers are moved then DFW becomes less of a sports town in my humble opinion (much like Miami will if the Marlins go). Sell, don't move.

 

[Kritter47]

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

Happens with every major sport in Dallas.

Red Wings-Stars games attract a lot of Wings jerseys.
Lakers-Mavs games break out the LA jerseys.
Yankees/Red Sox-Rangers
Eagles/Skins/Giants-Cowboys.

My guess is that Dallas attracts a lot of transplants who don't necessarily give up their allegiance to their chosen sports teams. It's annoying as a fan and kind of funny of TV, but it's been a fact of life in the Metroplex for ages.

 

[gandhithegreat]

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

Happens with every major sport in Dallas.

Red Wings-Stars games attract a lot of Wings jerseys.
Lakers-Mavs games break out the LA jerseys.
Yankees/Red Sox-Rangers
Eagles/Skins/Giants-Cowboys.

My guess is that Dallas attracts a lot of transplants who don't necessarily give up their allegiance to their chosen sports teams. It's annoying as a fan and kind of funny of TV, but it's been a fact of life in the Metroplex for ages.

yeah I would agree, but when the Cowboys play in Arizona, there are as many Cowboy fans as Cardinals ones...so I don't think it's as noticeable when the Giants/Skins, etc. come to Dallas.

I sat on the first base side of two Yankee/Rangers games this season and I was shocked. I've noticed it before, but this season was bizarre. The stadium was probably 90% and almost 35-40% of the spectators had some NY shirt on it. In fact, the friend that went with me, a buddy who grew up here, talked about the Yankees in terms of we and our team...I was floored. I grew up hating the Yankees, and he lived in the City for a couple of years...

 

[kleeda]

As a onetime-longtime resident in the area, the fans for visiting teams started showing up in the early 80s when the Great (Dying) Northern Cities started to dry up. Bruce Springsteen's song "Seeds" about sums the movement up. Should have heard the Tigers fans and the strong Michigan accents in the late 80s. Went to one Rangers series in '87 I will promise you was 80+ percent Tigers fans.

As for the D Magazine article. Sorry Frank, it's about dead on. I subscribed to that paper for years, but when I was home in August it was close to unreadable. And I have many friends there. I think the bulk of comics were spread over about 10 pages of some tab-sized vomitous mess that I would have otherwise ignored. And of course there were specific comics sprinkled throughtout the rest of the paper. I don't want to have to search for Dilbert.

Can't give you the numbers offhand of what classifieds brought to the paper, but I know the two biggest fears were always that Dillard's would go belly up and that a new business model (the internet?) would kill classifieds. I know at my former shop one year the biggest advertiser of any kind was a helicopter maker. It was all classifieds and feel-good fullpage ads about the company. Obviously there ain't too many readers ready to drop $4 million on a new ride, so it wasn't like they were trying to sell the things.

I remember in the heyday about two pages worth of classifieds dedicated just to the area's big defense contractors (General Dynamics, Vought, Bell-Textron). There was probably another page of subsidiary businesses to those.

So yes, I do believe classifieds carried the freight for many of the glory years at the DMN.