UVA and the alleged frat rape - Rolling Stone backpedals

[cranberry]

Yes. Because it means that less resources will get thrown at another problem that needs it.

I guess the shrill feminists are competing better in the marketplace of ideas. #PoorMen!

 

[Smash Williams]

So your real worry here is the potential inefficiency of throwing too many resources at the problem?

The problems I have are two-fold.

First, resources (particularly financial) are a zero-sum game. If the problem is over or under represented, some other problem that could impact more people or impact others just as harshly will get a disproportionately low share of attention/finances/problem-solving. Drug abuse among students is one that comes immediately to mind. Having good statistical data to understand the actual scope of each problem is key to being able to distribute resources appropriately.

Two, if you present numbers that seem unrealistically high, people will tune out the important part of your message. The 1-in-4/5 number that's floating around is a great example of that. There are studies that can be manipulated to such conclusions, but they are so twisted in their data interpretation that no one who understands how to read academic papers actually believes them. Activists bank on the shock value, but if and when someone shows how convoluted the process is to actually get to those numbers, it does more harm than good because most who once said, "Wow, that number is unbelievably high" then think "Wow, I was right that it was unbelievable - why should I believe anything else this advocacy group tells me. If they have to lie about their numbers to even get me to care, it's obviously not that big of a problem." Fool me twice, shame on me and all that.

The solution to both of those issues is to find good data and go from there. Unfortunately, people on the advocacy side and the lunatic fringe on the other side are so invested in their respective corners that no one is interested in actual data at this point.

 

[PW2]

I guess the shrill feminists are competing better in the marketplace of ideas. #PoorMen!

I don't understand your answer.

Let's say it takes $100 to stop rape on campus. Let's say that 1 in 200 women get raped.

But instead of spending the $100 it would take to stop rape, we spend $4,000, addressing it as a 1 in 5 problem.

That's $3,900 more than necessary. That's $3,900 that could be used for scholarships for minorities and underprivileged kids. That's $3,900 that could be spent on improving the professor-to-student ratio. That's $3,900 that could be spent on better mental health services for students. And on and on.

 

[doctorquant]

Men should not be allowed to attend college with women. This would all but eliminate campus sexual assault of the man-on-woman variety. It's a small price to pay to eliminate this huge problem.

 

[LongTimeListener]

I don't understand your answer.

Let's say it takes $100 to stop rape on campus. Let's say that 1 in 200 women get raped.

But instead of spending the $100 it would take to stop rape, we spend $4,000, addressing it as a 1 in 5 problem.

That's $3,900 more than necessary. That's $3,900 that could be used for scholarships for minorities and underprivileged kids. That's $3,900 that could be spent on improving the professor-to-student ratio. That's $3,900 that could be spent on better mental health services for students. And on and on.

In addition, the zeal to punish has done a nice job of creating men as victims here -- not just in the "oh dearie me this is so tough on us" sense of the UVA frat bros, but in very real terms for men who are getting kicked out of school by kangaroo courts.

 

[MisterCreosote]

The problems I have are two-fold.

First, resources (particularly financial) are a zero-sum game. If the problem is over or under represented, some other problem that could impact more people or impact others just as harshly will get a disproportionately low share of attention/finances/problem-solving. Drug abuse among students is one that comes immediately to mind. Having good statistical data to understand the actual scope of each problem is key to being able to distribute resources appropriately.

Two, if you present numbers that seem unrealistically high, people will tune out the important part of your message. The 1-in-4/5 number that's floating around is a great example of that. There are studies that can be manipulated to such conclusions, but they are so twisted in their data interpretation that no one who understands how to read academic papers actually believes them. Activists bank on the shock value, but if and when someone shows how convoluted the process is to actually get to those numbers, it does more harm than good because most who once said, "Wow, that number is unbelievably high" then think "Wow, I was right that it was unbelievable - why should I believe anything else this advocacy group tells me. If they have to lie about their numbers to even get me to care, it's obviously not that big of a problem." Fool me twice, shame on me and all that.

The solution to both of those issues is to find good data and go from there. Unfortunately, people on the advocacy side and the lunatic fringe on the other side are so invested in their respective corners that no one is interested in actual data at this point.

First, thank you for a woman's point of view.

Secondly, in regards to the bolded part, if resources are dedicated to that and binge-drinking, I'll bet you'd see an immediate decline in sexual assault cases. There are many credible reasons to believe there's a big rape problem on college campuses, and those are Nos. 1 and 2.

 

[Smash Williams]

I agree with that, MC. For what it's worth, I also think the definition of sexual assault has gotten far too broad for campuses to handle well (cases where both parties were equally drunk and there is regret in the aftermath but no force in the moment, for instance). I also think there needs to be a clear distinction between the advocates, whose job it is to say "I believe you," and the adjudicators, whose job it should be to find the truth, not one person's interpretation of it. Campus tribunals are a joke for the most part, with campuses running so scared of potential Title IX complaints that they're doing a disservice to the big picture of what actually happened. I honestly believe sexual assault cases that are at heart criminal events should be turned over to the police and campuses should have no part in investigating them. Campuses should only handle cases where the level of infraction doesn't rise to the level of criminality but may violate student code of conduct rules.

This obviously won't solve all problems - police departments are woefully inept at handling sexual assault cases. But so are campuses, and adding another layer of inept handling just adds to the mess. Plus for those cases where you've clearly got a criminal on your hands, such as the man in Virginia kicked out of two schools for rape who eventually kidnapped and killed women, you have the record in in the criminal system.

Also, I think college's should be proactive in telling women how to keep themselves safe. We tell people to lock their doors at night and not leave their laptops unattended, and we should tell everyone (men and women) that getting blackout drunk is as high risk as it comes, that accepting drinks from strangers is stupid, that if you're going out, it's safer to do so in a group that you'll come home with. Someone earlier on this thread said the difference between advice and blame is timing, but that just makes it more necessary to give advice early. Bad people are always going to be out there, and you can do a lot to help protect yourself.

 

[doctorquant]

For what it's worth, I also think the definition of sexual assault has gotten far too broad for campuses to handle well (cases where both parties were equally drunk and there is regret in the aftermath but no force in the moment, for instance).

George Will and I completely agree, but apparently we're insufficiently sensitive to the scale/scope of this problem.

 

[PW2]

The drunk thing is just hard to get my head around.

Here's a dirty little secret: When women get drunk, they get a little more sexually aggressive.

Here's a second dirty little secret: When you're an 18-22-year-old guy, used to rejection (as most men are), that's not easy to walk away from.

I also would venture to guess that most men convince themselves that "she really means it," and it just took a little alcohol to bring those true feelings out.

Sometimes, that's actually the case. Exhibit A: My marriage. Exhibit B: Probably a lot of yours, as well.

 

[cranberry]

George Will and I completely agree, but apparently we're insufficiently sensitive to the scale/scope of this problem.

That's because George Will also thinks that elite academia is making "victimhood a coveted status that confers privileges" and that "victims proliferate" because of this phenomenon rather than, you know, actually being sexually assaulted.

 

[Boom_70]

The drunk thing is just hard to get my head around.

Here's a dirty little secret: When women get drunk, they get a little more sexually aggressive.

Here's a second dirty little secret: When you're an 18-22-year-old guy, used to rejection (as most men are), that's not easy to walk away from.

I also would venture to guess that most men convince themselves that "she really means it," and it just took a little alcohol to bring those true feelings out.

Sometimes, that's actually the case. Exhibit A: My marriage. Exhibit B: Probably a lot of yours, as well.

This is why Mormons practice Polygamy. With no alcohol to bring out true feelings it's just easier
to take on 4 or 5 wives and sort things out on the fly.

 

[JayFarrar]

This is why Mormons practice Polygamy. With no alcohol to bring out true feelings it's just easier
to take on 4 or 5 wives and sort things out on the fly.

I'm 100 percent positive that rape is not an issue at Brigham Young University but not because of polygamy.

I'd also wager my right nut that any school that forbids drinking amongst its students doesn't have a problem with campus rape.