Meanwhile on the International front....

[Inky_Wretch]

The more accurate question is does the Torah preach peace more than the Koran?

The Word doesn't matter as much as the political ambitions of man.

 

[outofplace]

I have been trying to take a reasoned approach to this topic, but it isn't easy. I'm not the most observant Jew. I've never even seriously considered going to Israel. My daughter, however, went there this past summer as part of the Birthright program. For those who don't know, Birthright is an organization that provides free trips to Israel for young Jewish people. The entire trip made me nervous, especially the couple of days that she had no cell service. They mostly stuck to what are considered safe areas but were near the Gaza Strip for part of one day. At one point, she tried to extend her stay. My brother-in-law correctly predicted that there was a guy involved. So yeah, my daughter has an Israeli boyfriend. He is with her right now. My first reaction earlier today was to text her to see if they had heard what was happening. They had. She told me I didn't want to see the pictures and videos. She told me how awful this all is. I can't help thinking the worst, thinking what could have been if they had chosen July instead of October for this attack. I know she wants to go back and that scares the crap out of me. I can't help thinking that someone my daughter cares about will go back to that very soon. I have seen some of the videos and pictures. I have read about the murder of innocents and kidnappings.

I get that there is a larger debate, but I have to change my initial reply from earlier. Today wasn't the day to talk about Israel not having the moral high ground. It just wasn't. I don't give a darn what led to the attack. It doesn't justify what Hamas did today.

 

[X-Hack]

I hear you. My son (now a freshman in college) has been to Israel twice in the last two years - once for a six-week visit sponsored by his summer camp and again last spring for four weeks with his senior clash (he transferred to a Jewish prep school after freshman year because he needed smaller clashes and more attention than our huge public HS could give and the Israel trip is part of the curriculum). Yesterday he learned that one of his Israeli counselors from his visit this past spring, who he was close to, was abducted by Hamas from a desert rave shortly after the start of the attack and then there was a published report yesterday evening that he was murdered (we are holding out hope it is false - the news source has a sketchy quality - but realistically he's probably dead). I spent a year there myself when I was younger and was there during a scary time myself (the first Gulf War - I was there for the scuds). I have friends I've known for more than 30 years who live there and some of them have kids doing their active duty commitment in the IDF. I don't blame anyone for engaging in debate over short/long term blame, Bibi's political future, US support for Israel, etc, but it's just tough to digest that kind of armchair analysis right now (the same way it's probably tough to hear armchair analysis from me when a world event takes place that I have zero connection to, I'm personally removed from and it's largely academic). I'm feeling pretty dazed regarding yesterday. And I'm dreading the decision we're going to have to make regarding whether our daughter goes this summer knowing how crushed she'll be if she can't go - the trip is a culmination of an 8-year program - and how emotionally wrenching it will be to have to make a decision not to send our daughter to visit what to us is our homeland and a refuge for our people, as imperfect as it may be. They canceled the trip for covid a few years ago but they've never, in something like 75 years, canceled it for geopolitical/safety issues.

 

[Vombatus]

Thanks @outofplace and @X-Hack for sharing those two very personal stories. I wish you and your families the best.

VB

 

[Regan MacNeil]

Do you doubt that at least the first half of what the Israeli told TigerVols is true?

Doubt is a strong word. No, I don't doubt it. I also don't think it's 100% metaphysical certitude, given Israel in this hypothetical scenario still presumably has the US as an ally. Because I do think we'd go to war for them in that hypothetical scenario and probably end up with some hard-earned stalemate that'd would basically put everyone where they already are now, minus tens of thousands of dead on all sides.

I don't see a solution to this problem that would make both sides happy or even content.

Let me add, for TigerVols' friend, if Israel were truly only about peace, why are they settling the West Bank over and over and over again? I suspect the average hard-liner has just as much hate in his heart as your average aggrieved Palestinian.

Edit: I looked at my wording and it could be confusing. TLDR: They'd 100% be attacked. I don't think they'd be wiped out.

 

[swingline]

As an Israeli I know once told me, "if we laid down our arms, we'd all be dead by midnight. If they lay down their arms, peace would be had forever."

So, good for me but not for thee.

 

[Driftwood]

I belong to a civic group that sends preachers on a Holy Land Pilgrimage every few years when we raise enough money through pancake breakfasts to do it.
I refuse to have any part of it.
I'm not taking part in sending some random preacher on a free vacation to the Gatlinburg of the Middle East.

 

[dixiehack]

Since this is pretty much a cinch to become the Israeli war thread, may we update the thread title accordingly?

 

[DanOregon]

One thing you can count on when violence in the Middle East erupts - people looking for the "Hot Take of the Day" award will say some truly idiotic things - left and right - to make their points. There is no "Yes, but....." when it comes to what happened in Israel yesterday.

 

[Inky_Wretch]

Thanks @outofplace and @X-Hack for sharing those two very personal stories. I wish you and your families the best.

VB

Co-signed.

 

[HanSenSE]

 

[WriteThinking]

Russia doesn't recognize Ukraine? Start a war. The Hamas -- I refuse to refer to them as "Hamas," like they're a country, or something -- don't recognize Israel? Start a war...

And this all happened because...?

Oh, yeah, just...because. Seriously, what is wrong with people?

Ukraine is not going to be wiped off the face of the earth. Israel is not going to be wiped off the face of the earth. So, what, exactly, is the real end game of these situations? There is literally nothing good, or better, that could come out of any of these attacks.

We have one world, people only have one life, and all that. How freaking pointlessly wasteful and nothing-but-destructive-just-for-the-hell-of-it do people really want to be?

Sorry for a bit of a stream-of-consciousness rant, but I'm just disgusted with it all. Haven't said much otherwise because, really, what is there to say? It's all pointless -- other than maybe provoking worse, of course.