obviously i'll have something to say about this...

[zagoshe]

Boobie -- I guess my question is -- when do we start to expect more from the Whitlock's of this world? When do we start to hold their feet to the fire and say -- OK, we know you think a big problem is the "prison culture" and gansta rap -- we get it. How about now, instead of just writing about what's wrong, writing about how to make changes. Where do you start? Are these changes individual then collective or vice versa?

I think it is too easy to hail some of these columnists when they stir shirt up and "make us think" but to me it is the height of irresponsibility if you spend your entire time pointing fingers and passing blame and never once say -- here is how we could go about starting to fix it.

That is much harder because it requires a lot more than a few cleverly constructed phrases to achieve.

 

[zagoshe]

I give Steven A. a lot of credit, that was very well written.

And I couldn't help but think some of the same things because the first two NFL players suspended by the commish are black and Ricky Williams is black and in trouble. And Michael Vick is black and in some hot water. And Steve McNair just got a second DUI. And Tank Johnson is next.

That isn't to say there is a link between race and crime -- it is just an unfortunate coincidence. But there is no doubt corporate America is taking notes and every time one of these incidents happen it gets harder and harder to blame the media for the perceptions and images of black athletes

There is a link between poverty and crime though, and a higher percentage of blacks come from a background of poverty. The easiest way out of poverty is through education, and that's not valued as much as it should be or it wasn't in the "urban" school I taught at.

Maybe you were one of the few teachers that gave a damn about their students. Many teachers I've encountered in my time in "urban" schools had a half glass empty attitude towards their students. We fail to realize that kids are smart enough to know who doesn't give a damn about them, so they give that attitude back in return.

What's funny is hearing from African American elders who said their teachers, who by default were lawyers, engineers and doctors that couldn't find work because of Jim Crow, EXPECTED them to succeed. As for today, my ex-wife thinks I'm making too much of a stink over my daughters school giving them a day off as a reward for NOT fighting during the school year. If you expect our kids to screw up, I don't expect you to teach our children.

We take children in poverty-infested neighborhoods riddled with crime, violence, gangs and hopelessness. Many of them come from homes where one or both of their parents don't give a shirt, are strung out on drugs or have to work so many long hard hours just to make ends meet that they aren't able to be around in a supervisory role.

We add to that so-called community leaders, many of whom receive government grants for pscyho-babbling programs that are geared towards, well making sure they have enough clients, and they do their best to advance their agenda's by pushing school boards to make awful decisions about counseling and/or guidance programs as well as methods of discipline that aren't in the best interests of the kids.

They also find new and creative ways to make it damn near impossible for school's to discipline the really bad kids and/or hold kids accountable and you can just forget about finding ways to seperate the disruptive and or troublemaking kids, the drug dealer and gangbangers, because that's just racist or plain unfair.

We then add to that teacher's unions which have their own agenda, some of it good, some of it that's not in the kid's interests, and also making sure it is damn near impossible to raise the level of the bad teachers, even if it is by helping them out with more education and/or other forms of structured discipline.

We then add on top of all that the fact that many of the parents who do give a shirt nowadays are convinced little Johnny is an angel and will burn up the phone lines to the principals in order to complain every time they feel like their child didn't get a fair shake or was "unfairly" disciplined or didn't receive the grade they "deserved".

We throw all this together and call it our inner-city school systems and then expect our teachers to have a fighting chance to succeed and criticize them when they don't?

I have to be honest with you --- that saying about making chicken salad out of chicken shirt certainly applies here.

There are many reasons for our children's failures in education and in life, I don't consider teachers to be one of them.

 

[Montezuma's Revenge]

Stephen A is an ass. His words mean little. It's very easy to separate the message from the messenger.

So because you don't like the messenger, the message can't be worth anything?

Guess that pretty much renders any of your messages on these boards as worthless as Confederate money.

 

[Big Chee]

I give Steven A. a lot of credit, that was very well written.

And I couldn't help but think some of the same things because the first two NFL players suspended by the commish are black and Ricky Williams is black and in trouble. And Michael Vick is black and in some hot water. And Steve McNair just got a second DUI. And Tank Johnson is next.

That isn't to say there is a link between race and crime -- it is just an unfortunate coincidence. But there is no doubt corporate America is taking notes and every time one of these incidents happen it gets harder and harder to blame the media for the perceptions and images of black athletes

There is a link between poverty and crime though, and a higher percentage of blacks come from a background of poverty. The easiest way out of poverty is through education, and that's not valued as much as it should be or it wasn't in the "urban" school I taught at.

Maybe you were one of the few teachers that gave a damn about their students. Many teachers I've encountered in my time in "urban" schools had a half glass empty attitude towards their students. We fail to realize that kids are smart enough to know who doesn't give a damn about them, so they give that attitude back in return.

What's funny is hearing from African American elders who said their teachers, who by default were lawyers, engineers and doctors that couldn't find work because of Jim Crow, EXPECTED them to succeed. As for today, my ex-wife thinks I'm making too much of a stink over my daughters school giving them a day off as a reward for NOT fighting during the school year. If you expect our kids to screw up, I don't expect you to teach our children.

We take children in poverty-infested neighborhoods riddled with crime, violence, gangs and hopelessness. Many of them come from homes where one or both of their parents don't give a shirt, are strung out on drugs or have to work so many long hard hours just to make ends meet that they aren't able to be around in a supervisory role.

We add to that so-called community leaders, many of whom receive government grants for pscyho-babbling programs that are geared towards, well making sure they have enough clients, and they do their best to advance their agenda's by pushing school boards to make awful decisions about counseling and/or guidance programs as well as methods of discipline that aren't in the best interests of the kids.

They also find new and creative ways to make it damn near impossible for school's to discipline the really bad kids and/or hold kids accountable and you can just forget about finding ways to seperate the disruptive and or troublemaking kids, the drug dealer and gangbangers, because that's just racist or plain unfair.

We then add to that teacher's unions which have their own agenda, some of it good, some of it that's not in the kid's interests, and also making sure it is damn near impossible to raise the level of the bad teachers, even if it is by helping them out with more education and/or other forms of structured discipline.

We then add on top of all that the fact that many of the parents who do give a shirt nowadays are convinced little Johnny is an angel and will burn up the phone lines to the principals in order to complain every time they feel like their child didn't get a fair shake or was "unfairly" disciplined or didn't receive the grade they "deserved".

We throw all this together and call it our inner-city school systems and then expect our teachers to have a fighting chance to succeed and criticize them when they don't?

I have to be honest with you --- that saying about making chicken salad out of chicken shirt certainly applies here.

There are many reasons for our children's failures in education and in life, I don't consider teachers to be one of them.

Your overinflated checklist of inner city problems aside, considering school crime in the inner cities have dropped year by year since the early 90's as well as graduation rates increasing steadily, I find a huge problem with many hard working kids who are handed their HS diplomas while being barley literate.

That has everything to do with the effort put forward by many of these so-called teachers.

 

[jason_whitlock]

i've been writing about changes. check aolsports.com. people aren't digesting them because they're so caught up in the fact that i questioned vivian stringer. i missed the memo that vivian stringer is more than just a typical basketball coach. i didn't know she was above criticism. does anyone have a copy of the memo that states vivian stringer is nelson womandela? i'd like to read it. did nabj nominate her for this position?

 

[Big Chee]

i've been writing about changes. check aolsports.com. people aren't digesting them because they're so caught up in the fact that i questioned vivian stringer. i missed the memo that vivian stringer is more than just a typical basketball coach. i didn't know she was above criticism. does anyone have a copy of the memo that states vivian stringer is nelson womandela? i'd like to read it. did nabj nominate her for this position?

Why resort to hyperbole?

Exactly WHAT about Vivian Stringers words bothered you?

And please, if I want to hear about change in the African American community, it wouldn't be by anyone who admits to not following politics, writes poorly researched articles, and subscribes to talk show journalism.

 

[jason_whitlock]

Big Chee

The victimization and the dishonesty (players scarred for life, season ruined) bothered me greatly. The ranting about people not knowing the "Rutgers story" and how they rebounded from a 40-point loss and overcame "mighty Duke" or whatever. It was a mistake to parade the young women out to an hourlong press conference, especially one in which you were going to act like a 66-year-old shock jock had just set race relations back 100 years by uttering words that are common place in our community. The whole thing seemed staged and a grab for attention. It in no way came across as someone trying to improve an overall situation.

Again, I'd like to know what makes Vivian Stringer above criticism? She's a basketball coach, and I've yet to meet a coach who isn't attention starved.

 

[Big Chee]

Big Chee

The victimization and the dishonesty (players scarred for life, season ruined) bothered me greatly. The ranting about people not knowing the "Rutgers story" and how they rebounded from a 40-point loss and overcame "mighty Duke" or whatever. It was a mistake to parade the young women out to an hourlong press conference, especially one in which you were going to act like a 66-year-old shock jock had just set race relations back 100 years by uttering words that are common place in our community. The whole thing seemed staged and a grab for attention. It in no way came across as someone trying to improve an overall situation.

Again, I'd like to know what makes Vivian Stringer above criticism? She's a basketball coach, and I've yet to meet a coach who isn't attention starved.

There's a difference between criticism and legitimate criticism. You admitted to knowing little about her, yet summed up her character as being something less than stellar. To me and many of us in here, its that type of criticism that lacks merit smartguy, because its baseless.

Also, hearing the eloquence coming from the mouths of some of the African American members of the Rutgers basketball team was refreshing and a far cry from the Monique and New York's of the world that flood the media.

And you actually believe that was a mistake?

Incredible.

 

[PhilaYank36]

I got to Page 7 on this thread before I couldn't take anymore of this huge bitching fest. A few things I learned:

1) Jason likes getting attention. Nothing wrong with that, and once in a while, he'll stick his foot in his mouth doing so. It happens to everyone, so let's try not to make him out to be the most misguided journalist in the past 30 years.

2) Sportsbruh is a stupid clown that should save his comments and name-calling for the playground. Grow up, son. If you don't like the man, try to use grown-up tactics and a little tact.

3) Everyone has there own opinions on this whole Imus/Rutgers/Stringer fiasco. It seems like little in this saga was handled properly and no one will ever be satisfied with anything that comes out of it.

4) Publicly calling a fellow writer mediocre or average is treading on thin ice. Nothing wrong with expressing your opinions about your colleagues, but if you don't want to get roasted on an open fire for your comments, I'd try to phrase it in a way that most people would understand where I'm coming from.

I'm not jumping on the anti-JW bandwagon, Jason, just telling you what I think of all this. Enjoy the Royals!

 

[PhilaYank36]

Stephen A. Smith weighs in. I post without comment. I couldn't find it on the web, so I'm just copying and pasting it (and probably going to heck).

Time for many black athletes to wake up<P>
(DIVERSITY)
By Stephen A. Smith
The Philadelphia Inquirer
(MCT)
PHILADELPHIA — The site was the historic Morehouse College last week. The panel discussion was hosted by famed film director Spike Lee. The subject: the black athlete and the reporters who cover him. And as a bunch of notable figures in sports sat on this panel — Alonzo Mourning, C. Vivian Stringer, Jim Brown and myself included — bantering about issues stigmatizing African American athletes and the communities they come from, the one inescapable thought turned out to be the most appropriate — and the most uncomfortable.
We still have not recovered from the O.J. Simpson trial.
It’s still too easy to blame the media for images created by the actions of the modern-day athlete. It’s convenient to point out the lack of positive information draping the front pages of news outlets throughout this country. Meanwhile, we learn that Pacman Jones visited a strip club the night before he was suspended by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell for the 2007 season in part because of such habits.
Reports are swirling that dogfighting was taking place at the Virginia residence of Michael Vick. We’re being inundated with headline news about how Ricky Williams will not be reinstated due to yet another positive test for marijuana.
Oh, did I forget to mention that kids are paying attention?
The fact is, so is white America. Meaning corporate America. Meaning all the head honchos who influence the retaliatory actions of Mr. Goodell, NBA commissioner David Stern, and anyone else in a position to halt the negative impact of a few idiots tainting the jerseys they wear.
The truth is, any boss would be stupid if he or she didn’t pay attention.
The Goodells and Sterns of the world understand something black America had better comprehend quickly: Any athlete resembling O.J. Simpson will happen again over white America’s collective dead body.
You don’t have to be accused of murder to kill a generation of people. You can kill someone’s soul or spirit, their hopes and dreams, even their sensibilities. You can do this with misogynistic lyrics, with juvenile behavior. But mainly, with the slightest perception that these athletes are operating with impunity, enabled by the very individuals assigned to enforce justice and decency while making sure our games are played.
Spike Lee’s panel in Atlanta was supposed to focus on discussing this reality, or, put more bluntly, debating “the pervasive problem within this black youth hip-hop/prison culture” and the collateral damage it’s causing. At least that’s how it was conveyed to my respected colleague and fellow panelist, Jason Whitlock, who wrote about it in the Kansas City Star.
Regardless of what anyone thinks, Whitlock was correct in intimating the panel focused entirely too much energy and ire on him — even if he deserved it because of his comments questioning Stringer’s intent in the aftermath of the Don Imus fiasco. The typical keep-our-business-in-house mentality is not going to alleviate the problems in the black community. Or the concerns of those who are witnessing our deterioration, fearing it will plague them eventually.
Mourning, as charitable and sensible as an athlete comes these days, kept talking of how the “media’s negativity” contributes heavily. Etan Thomas of the Washington Wizards piggybacked on that, saying if the press focused more on exemplary works like that of Mourning’s foundation and others, image wouldn’t be a problem in the NFL or the NBA.
But there would be no problems if players were not getting arrested for domestic violence. USA Today wouldn’t have the faces of 39 arrested African American athletes (out of 41 total) plastered on the front page of its sports section if it wasn’t forced to visit the nearest precinct. And while it could easily be pointed out how little emphasis was placed on the death of St. Louis Cardinals pitcher Josh Hancock, who died in a car accident after having an alcohol level nearly double the legal limit, and how this came in the aftermath of his manager, Tony LaRussa, getting arrested after being found asleep behind the wheel with too much alcohol in his system, that still doesn’t solve the problems existing in the black community.
Economics is an issue. Education is an issue. And so is leadership. The world has learned we’re devoid of it because the athletes who are clueless and insensitive speak the loudest for us. Even when they can barely speak at all.
It’s time for them to wake up, to recognize their actions serve as the perfect excuse to stigmatize a generation.
I left the panel discussion hoping the few athletes there would use their long tentacles to make sure their contemporaries got that message. They had better get it quick because time is running out.
The powers that be couldn’t get the man jumping over suitcases in those Hertz commercials.
So any ignorant fools will do.

Holy forking shirt. I'd never thought I'd see the day where I'd say that was a nicely written article by Screamin' A. The guy still is a bigger attention wart than JDV & Whit combined, but I thought that was a solid article.

 

[jason_whitlock]

Big Chee

The victimization and the dishonesty (players scarred for life, season ruined) bothered me greatly. The ranting about people not knowing the "Rutgers story" and how they rebounded from a 40-point loss and overcame "mighty Duke" or whatever. It was a mistake to parade the young women out to an hourlong press conference, especially one in which you were going to act like a 66-year-old shock jock had just set race relations back 100 years by uttering words that are common place in our community. The whole thing seemed staged and a grab for attention. It in no way came across as someone trying to improve an overall situation.

Again, I'd like to know what makes Vivian Stringer above criticism? She's a basketball coach, and I've yet to meet a coach who isn't attention starved.

There's a difference between criticism and legitimate criticism. You admitted to knowing little about her, yet summed up her character as being something less than stellar. To me and many of us in here, its that type of criticism that lacks merit smartguy, because its baseless.

Also, hearing the eloquence coming from the mouths of some of the African American members of the Rutgers basketball team was refreshing and a far cry from the Monique and New York's of the world that flood the media.

And you actually believe that was a mistake?

Incredible.

i never summed up vivian's character. i wrote about what i thought of her handling of the imus situation... also, i was not amazed that a group of black college students knew how to speak proper english. i wasn't amazed by their "eloquence." i expected it. the black women i went to college with could all speak and write. i'm not trying to be sarcastic, but no one gave an "i had a dream" speech. all of this b.s. about how "eloquent" the players were is just that, b.s. they sounded like typical college students. what did you expect?... now i didn't get to see all of the question-and-answer segment. the last thing i remember seeing was one of the young women making the point that the meeting with imus "was important to the state of new jersey." i damn near fell out of my chair and wondered who had told these women that the future of new jersey was riding on their meeting with a shock jock.


can someone tell me why vivian stringer is above criticism?

 

[Tom Petty]

Big Chee

The victimization and the dishonesty (players scarred for life, season ruined) bothered me greatly. The ranting about people not knowing the "Rutgers story" and how they rebounded from a 40-point loss and overcame "mighty Duke" or whatever. It was a mistake to parade the young women out to an hourlong press conference, especially one in which you were going to act like a 66-year-old shock jock had just set race relations back 100 years by uttering words that are common place in our community. The whole thing seemed staged and a grab for attention. It in no way came across as someone trying to improve an overall situation.

Again, I'd like to know what makes Vivian Stringer above criticism? She's a basketball coach, and I've yet to meet a coach who isn't attention starved.

There's a difference between criticism and legitimate criticism. You admitted to knowing little about her, yet summed up her character as being something less than stellar. To me and many of us in here, its that type of criticism that lacks merit smartguy, because its baseless.

Also, hearing the eloquence coming from the mouths of some of the African American members of the Rutgers basketball team was refreshing and a far cry from the Monique and New York's of the world that flood the media.

And you actually believe that was a mistake?

Incredible.

i never summed up vivian's character. i wrote about what i thought of her handling of the imus situation... also, i was not amazed that a group of black college students knew how to speak proper english. i wasn't amazed by their "eloquence." i expected it. the black women i went to college with could all speak and write. i'm not trying to be sarcastic, but no one gave an "i had a dream" speech. all of this b.s. about how "eloquent" the players were is just that, b.s. they sounded like typical college students. what did you expect?... now i didn't get to see all of the question-and-answer segment. the last thing i remember seeing was one of the young women making the point that the meeting with imus "was important to the state of new jersey." i damn near fell out of my chair and wondered who had told these women that the future of new jersey was riding on their meeting with a shock jock.


can someone tell me why vivian stringer is above criticism?

she's not.