Iowa Caucus running thread

[Dick Whitman]

Sorry, Mr. Headbutt. Won't get baited into this shirt again.

Please. You didn't get baited into anything. I'm not baiting. There is a perfectly reasonable discussion to be had about whether Colmes was wrong and, if so, whether Santorum's handling of a family tragedy is otherwise open to more tactful, reasonable criticism in a presidential race. He is running for president on an anti-abortion, anti-contraception platform. As an abortion absolutist. His wife wrote a pro-life book about how they handled the death. I'm not saying I'd be using it in a mud-slinging campaign. I wouldn't touch it were I the opposition - much like Obama wouldn't go near Palin's family stuff.

But third-party grown-ups certainly have a right to talk about it. And probably an ability to do it tactfully and not just salaciously. Again, the Santorums began the discussion.

Obviously, you don't think that it's even open to discussion/debate. But I think you can make that point, which is a reasonable one, without expressing torture fantasies or f-bombing people. Let's be real here. You weren't going to "throat punch" anybody. You weren't going to "curb stomp" anybody.

 

[Iron_chet]

I think there are two arguments here:

(1) Whether it should be open for discussion at all.

(2) Whether the Santorum family should be criticized.

I am pro-life.

I think that, for many reasons, the Santorums' handling of the ordeal is at least open to discussion. Because they made it so.

I would've given anything to hold my baby after what happened to us. I didn't get that chance. Granted, I'm not running for president, but anyone who felt that our reaction was "open to discussion" would've gotten a throat punch. Anyone who thought it was reason to criticize us would've gotten curb-stomped.

You didn't write a book about it.

And, also, enough with the violence. My god. I get that you are speaking metaphorically, but come on already.

Hi deck

The violence in the words should probably show you what an emotional point this is. I abhor Santorum but just because he put it in a book does not mean it is "fair game."

Not really sure why you keep circling back to this as a talking point.

I don't care if it's an emotional point or not.

Grown adults should be able to have rational discussions about emotional points. Something being emotionally charged doesn't excuse threats of violence. And it doesn't take it off the table as a discussion. Perhaps the end of the discussion is, "The Santorums shouldn't be criticized." But they brought it up. And they bring up issues surrounding fetal development all the time. All the time. It's the damned linch pin of his campaign.

For clarity, when I say that it is "fair game," that doesn't mean that it's completely in bounds to unload at will. Colmes was wrong. But it's not wrong to discuss it tactfully, in the right context.

I would love to know what the right context is. This is a different issue than Santorum's views on abortion. This is his child dying. If he runs campaigns saying how he handled this issue then it is up for discussion.

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private. There are enough points to take Santorum to task on that making an issue of how he handled the death of his child should not be needed byany decent person.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private.

The Santorums did not think so.

 

[Boom_70]

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private.

The Santorums did not think so.

deck it seems like you would like it to be but Santorum does not seem to be making his dead child the centerpiece of his campaign.

 

[Iron_chet]

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private.

The Santorums did not think so.

Now you are being deliberately obtuse. Private matter for those outside the family. Detailing how you dealt with a death in a book is different than using it as a capaign talking point.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private.

The Santorums did not think so.

deck it seems like you would like it to be but Santorum does not seem to be making his dead child the centerpiece of his campaign.

No, but abortion is.

As I understand it, the Santorums continued with a very risky pregnancy because they are abortion absolutists. The anecdote is used to illustrate how even a fetus that had little chance of surviving was alive. They brought the baby home to drive that point home to their own children.

 

[YankeeFan]

I don't like all the cries for violence we see here when someone gets arrested for a vicious crime. I don't root for criminals to get ass raped in the shower.

But, I don't think MC was out of bounds, or speaking metaphorically.

If I had been through what he (or the Santorums) had been through, and someone chose to mock me to my face, they'd be getting a throat punch.

Might not be the proper, or "adult" response. Still wouldn't fault someone for doing it either.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I don't like all the cries for violence we see here when someone gets arrested for a vicious crime. I don't root for criminals to get ass raped in the shower.

But, I don't think MC was out of bounds, or speaking metaphorically.

If I had been through what he (or the Santorums) had been through, and someone chose to mock me to my face, they'd be getting a throat punch.

Might not be the proper, or "adult" response. Still wouldn't fault someone for doing it either.

He didn't say that he would "curb stomp" or "throat punch" someone who mocked him.

He said he would "curb stomp" or "throat punch" anybody who thought it was "open to discussion."

Every society and religion has their own rituals for dealing with death. How did those develop but for open discussions of how to handle death?

 

[YankeeFan]

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private.

The Santorums did not think so.

deck it seems like you would like it to be but Santorum does not seem to be making his dead child the centerpiece of his campaign.

I don't know how the topic was brought up. Was it in a book? I honestly don't know.

But, Al Gore talked about his sisters death. John Edwards talked about the death of his child. George W. Bush talked about when his young sister died as a child.

Now, maybe you discuss whether or not they used these stories in a cynical way. (Throughout most of my life, I've raised tobacco...I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put it in the plant beds and transferred it. I've hoped it. I've chopped it. I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold it.)

But, I wouldn't mock how these chose to deal with their grief.

That's what was over the line.

 

[YankeeFan]

I don't like all the cries for violence we see here when someone gets arrested for a vicious crime. I don't root for criminals to get ass raped in the shower.

But, I don't think MC was out of bounds, or speaking metaphorically.

If I had been through what he (or the Santorums) had been through, and someone chose to mock me to my face, they'd be getting a throat punch.

Might not be the proper, or "adult" response. Still wouldn't fault someone for doing it either.

He didn't say that he would "curb stomp" or "throat punch" someone who mocked him.

He said he would "curb stomp" or "throat punch" anybody who thought it was "open to discussion."

Every society and religion has their own rituals for dealing with death. How did those develop but for open discussions of how to handle death?

Yeah, but again, we're talking about discussing how someone how someone chose to deal with grief. Short of some sort of mental breakdown, I'm not sure how it's relevant.

And, whether it's outright mockery, or just a discussion, it really should be out of bounds. It's not something to be judged by a third party.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The bounds of decency say that this matter is private.

The Santorums did not think so.

deck it seems like you would like it to be but Santorum does not seem to be making his dead child the centerpiece of his campaign.

I don't know how the topic was brought up. Was it in a book? I honestly don't know.

But, Al Gore talked about his sisters death. John Edwards talked about the death of his child. George W. Bush talked about when his young sister died as a child.

Now, maybe you discuss whether or not they used these stories in a cynical way. (Throughout most of my life, I've raised tobacco...I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put it in the plant beds and transferred it. I've hoped it. I've chopped it. I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold it.)

But, I wouldn't mock how these chose to deal with their grief.

That's what was over the line.

They used the baby to advance their political agenda. Which is fine. Anecdotes are powerful, and the cause is righteous. But when you open up a discussion, you don't get to demand that it be one-sided.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I don't like all the cries for violence we see here when someone gets arrested for a vicious crime. I don't root for criminals to get ass raped in the shower.

But, I don't think MC was out of bounds, or speaking metaphorically.

If I had been through what he (or the Santorums) had been through, and someone chose to mock me to my face, they'd be getting a throat punch.

Might not be the proper, or "adult" response. Still wouldn't fault someone for doing it either.

He didn't say that he would "curb stomp" or "throat punch" someone who mocked him.

He said he would "curb stomp" or "throat punch" anybody who thought it was "open to discussion."

Every society and religion has their own rituals for dealing with death. How did those develop but for open discussions of how to handle death?

Yeah, but again, we're talking about discussing how someone how someone chose to deal with grief. Short of some sort of mental breakdown, I'm not sure how it's relevant.

And, whether it's outright mockery, or just a discussion, it really should be out of bounds. It's not something to be judged by a third party.

I can't get on board with the idea that there are no lines at all when it comes to how someone deals with grief.

What if someone propped up Grandma in the den, Jeremy Bentham-style? No discussion?