Reneging on job offer - both ways

[Joe Williams]

I pulled an offer off the table once. Interviewed someone for a writing job and offered them $500 a week, which for our market and that time (about 10 years ago) was decent money. Told the candidate from Day 1 that the budget only allowed me to go to $500. A day after making the offer, the guy counters with $600 a week.

I told him to get lost -- he Pished me off by countering completely out of my budget (and knowing it). Then he says he'll accept the $500, but I told him it wasn't on the table any more.

Maybe that proves I'm an ashhole, but I never lowball salary and always tell candidates where they'd be financially if they worked for me. I give my best offer up front, always, and encourage them to ask staffers if it's true. If this guy would have come back with, say, $525, I would simply said, "Sorry, $500 is the limit, you know that." For him to come back at $600 tells me that he didn't listen to a damned thing I said during the interview and he'll be huge pain in the ash.

I know no one asked for a show of hands, but I'm with the others on this. You might not intend this, beanpole, but you sound like the sort of guy who would get mad if someone made you an offer on your house lower than what you were asking -- which is something that is done all the time. Then again, are you saying that you would have clammed up and not asked for a dime more, based on a potential future boss telling you he is maxed out on his first offer? Or that asking for 5% more is OK, in those circumstances (even if futile), but seeking 10% or 20% more would be a lethal request?

This is just one more on the endless list of evidence of how badly newspapers are run. If the department heads are incapable of carrying on even a rudimentary salary negotiation, then they should flip the keys to HR. The rules change from work place to work place -- first offer as best offer vs. lowballing vs. expected give-and-take -- and yet we get middle management getting "mad" over this stuff. Amateurish.

 

[Ace]

I haven't reneged on a job offer, but if some boss wants you to decide on the spot, rather than giving you a day or two to think it over, he deserves whatever he gets.

 

[beanpole]

I pulled an offer off the table once. Interviewed someone for a writing job and offered them $500 a week, which for our market and that time (about 10 years ago) was decent money. Told the candidate from Day 1 that the budget only allowed me to go to $500. A day after making the offer, the guy counters with $600 a week.

I told him to get lost -- he Pished me off by countering completely out of my budget (and knowing it). Then he says he'll accept the $500, but I told him it wasn't on the table any more.

Maybe that proves I'm an ashhole, but I never lowball salary and always tell candidates where they'd be financially if they worked for me. I give my best offer up front, always, and encourage them to ask staffers if it's true. If this guy would have come back with, say, $525, I would simply said, "Sorry, $500 is the limit, you know that." For him to come back at $600 tells me that he didn't listen to a damned thing I said during the interview and he'll be huge pain in the ash.

I know no one asked for a show of hands, but I'm with the others on this. You might not intend this, beanpole, but you sound like the sort of guy who would get mad if someone made you an offer on your house lower than what you were asking -- which is something that is done all the time. Then again, are you saying that you would have clammed up and not asked for a dime more, based on a potential future boss telling you he is maxed out on his first offer? Or that asking for 5% more is OK, in those circumstances (even if futile), but seeking 10% or 20% more would be a lethal request?

This is just one more on the endless list of evidence of how badly newspapers are run. If the department heads are incapable of carrying on even a rudimentary salary negotiation, then they should flip the keys to HR. The rules change from work place to work place -- first offer as best offer vs. lowballing vs. expected give-and-take -- and yet we get middle management getting "mad" over this stuff. Amateurish.

I think this comment, and the others that preceded it, are fair, although they made me wince. I didn't hande it well and I've changed a lot about how I interview and hire since that particular story.

Yes, I was Pished about the $600 counter. I offered $500 because it was the max my publisher would let me go, and I don't believe in starting at $450 or $475 just so I can negotiate upward. God knows that salaries are bad enough already; I want to give staffers all the money I can. His decision to ask for what, 20 percent more, told me that we weren't even on the same page about the job or the expectations. It told me that he'll never satisified at my paper and that he doesn't listen well, either. Who needs that?

But in the days and followed, I realized that the breakdown was more my fault then his. It was my fault, more than likely, that he thought I could even come close to reaching $600 a week. And I realized that I shouldn't have pulled up stakes so quickly.

So I changed how I interview. Now I make sure we're in the same ballpark salarywise in the first interview, so both sides have a clear understanding financally of where we could go. If I end up making an offer, I walk the candidate through our salary scale so they understand why they're getting a certain amount, when they can expect raises and what they can do to earn merit increases. I warn them that they're getting my best offer because I don't want to lowball anyone or leave money on the table, and I urge them to talk to anyone in the department about salaries so they can hopefully see that I'm not trying to screw them. (I don't expect them to trust *me* in a negotiation, but I know that the staff would tell them, "No, Beanpole's not an ash, this is a good place to be." And no, I don't tell anyone what other people are making.)

All this happened years ago when I was an awful manager. Now I think that I'm pretty decent and interview carefully to make sure that we're a good fit for our candidates, and our candidates are good fits for us. And I never get emotional about making a hire -- if I can't land my top candidate, I move on to my No. 2.

And I completely understand why people negotiate. I negotiate when I look for a new job, too. The point I hoped to make, and failed completely, is that if the hiring editor says that you have his best offer, don't ask for an extra 20 percent.

 

[mdpoppy]

The point I hoped to make, and failed completely, is that if the hiring editor says that you have his best offer, don't ask for an extra 20 percent.

Every hiring editor always says you have his best offer. It sounds like you're just one of the few who decides to be honest -- which really is nice, but few people are going to believe you the way the hiring game is played these days.

Obviously, asking for an extra 20 percent is a little high. Just make sure you know your worth in the market you're applying to and negotiate based off of that -- I believe Salary.com gives some ballpark ranges.

 

[forever_town]

I think this comment, and the others that preceded it, are fair, although they made me wince. I didn't hande it well and I've changed a lot about how I interview and hire since that particular story.

While I disagree with your last sentence, I appreciate the fact that you posted a long mea culpa. I also appreciate the fact that you demonstrated your ability to admit your mistakes.

If I were just going by your first post, I wouldn't know if I'd want to work with you. After reading that one, I think I would be more than happy to.

 

[buckweaver]

His decision to ask for what, 20 percent more, told me that we weren't even on the same page about the job or the expectations. It told me that he'll never satisified at my paper and that he doesn't listen well, either. Who needs that?

<snip>

And I completely understand why people negotiate. I negotiate when I look for a new job, too. The point I hoped to make, and failed completely, is that if the hiring editor says that you have his best offer, don't ask for an extra 20 percent.

I understand you realize in hindsight that your reaction to him was pretty harsh, which is why you got jumped on here.

That said, if that's what you got out of his negotiating -- that he "doesn't listen well" -- I think you don't (or didn't) understand the point of negotiating. If you're not on the same page about money, then you're not on the same page. Hey, it happens.

But I think it's terrible advice to say "if the hiring editor says that you have his best offer, don't ask for 20 percent more." Too many people have been burned by too many bosses in this business to trust managers at their word, especially about money, especially when they don't know each other well.

It's great that you gave him your best offer first. Most people don't, and if you made me an offer of $500/week, I probably might have asked for $600, too. That's if I didn't just thank you for your time right there, which is probably what he should have done if he sensed that it really was your best offer and it wasn't right for him.

The fact that you got offended that he asked for (a lot) more money ... well, bid'ness is bid'ness. No one else is gonna do it for him. If you don't ask for it, you'll never get it.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

Both sides have to be informed . . . and have to be willing to be real. Latest seasonal freelance gig I accepted was finalized at 50% over and above the original figure suggested by the employer. I knew the market, had a real good idea about just how much time the gig would absorb, and wasn't bashful about
dragging the proceedings to a realistic level. Desperation is another story, but in a fair fight between consenting adults, a fair figure should be attainable, in most
cases.

 

[Joe Williams]

I think this comment, and the others that preceded it, are fair, although they made me wince. I didn't hande it well and I've changed a lot about how I interview and hire since that particular story.

While I disagree with your last sentence, I appreciate the fact that you posted a long mea culpa. I also appreciate the fact that you demonstrated your ability to admit your mistakes.

If I were just going by your first post, I wouldn't know if I'd want to work with you. After reading that one, I think I would be more than happy to.

Clashy response, beanpole. You don't owe us nothin', but we surely have a better feel for where you were at when you interviewed that guy way back when vs. where you are now.

Agree with those here, too, who say that most hiring editors either don't really come with their best offer first or, even if they say it, still are playing salary games. And to me, that is stupid -- there hasn't been a workplace I've been in that doesn't have some sort of leak about what one person or another is making, and if there's not logic and fairness to the scale, it leads to far worse problems than a little negotiating time with a new hire. It can pit colleagues against colleagues, sap morale, foster distrust of supervisors and so on.

Let's not get too hung up on percentages, either. If you offered the guy $200 a week and he asked for $300, yeah, he'd be asking for a 50 PERCENT BUMP but he still would be below a livable wage. If you offered him $100K and he asked for $110K, he'd be asking for a more reasonable 10 percent but it still would cost the company an extra $10K that first year.

The guy in question asked for an extra hundred a week, probably hoping he could eke out an extra $50. Know scribes who cheat more than that on every trip's expenses.

 

[SF_Express]

Beanpole, your mea culpa pretty much covers things, although I still don't quite agree on the "don't ask for 20 percent more" thing.

You say $500, he says $600. You say, "Sorry, $500, final offer." And he either takes it or he doesn't. No matter what happens, neither person needs to be viewed as an ashhole.

I once had an offer that was "final," and I told my wife, and she said, "No way we can do it for that kind of money." So I said to the paper, "Sorry, I can't do it for less than X dollars." It was a considerable amount more than the offer.

And they gave it to me.

All of this is fair until one side says, "No can do" and the other says, "OK, well, best of luck to you."

I had two tweeners in this regard. Both Florida papers. We loved each other in both instances. I wanted the job, they wanted me, interviews were great.

Then the money offers came. One place was LESS than I was making. One was barely more. I resent the second more. The first, I think that was their budget. The second, it was a really good opportunity in terms of the people I would have worked with -- including a soon-to-be-superstar columnist -- and the company, and they KNEW I wanted the job badly. So they low-balled me, and I said no, and they got annoyed because I wouldn't take the lowball offer, and I said, "Well, if that's the way it is, I probably shouldn't come anyway." And that was that.

 

[copperpot]

Right out of college, I accepted a job as a reporter at a crappy little paper in upstate New York, pretty much just so I'd have a job. About a week before I was supposed to start, I was offered a job as a reporter/editor/designer (at the time, I wanted to do all three things) at a paper in Pennsylvania. It was about $3,000 more, to boot.

I agonized over making the phone call to the first paper telling them I wouldn't be accepting it after all, but I got through that awkwardness and everything was fine. In fact, reading the "defining moments" thread, I thought of this, because it set my life on a much better and happier course.

 

[ServeItUp]

I'm going to be selfish and offer the epilogue to my "angel" walking three weeks after I got here...

I accepted the job on a Monday, he accepted his job the Wednesday after. I started there another three weeks later (he also was very firm on my start date, which was way too soon for me, one of the red flags I ignored). Know how I found out about him leaving? I overheard two of my co-workers talking about it inside my first week. He didn't tell me personally until his last day, though I suppose I could have asked in the interim. He still does some freelance stuff for us now but we haven't said word one to each other; he knows where to find me if he wants to say anything. Either way, I'm taking the high road.

This whole deal is but one more thing to poison me about the business. Employers think the privilege of being an information provider is such an honor that a candidate will lap up whatever pay is tossed out, but the worm is turning. Now that journalists have options outside the business to satisfy the storytelling jones, we don't have to stand for the lowballing bullship. I know I won't again and I'm afraid the next prospective employer will feel the brunt of my bitterness. And I probably won't get the job. Karma is indeed a bench.

 

[beanpole]

You say $500, he says $600. You say, "Sorry, $500, final offer." And he either takes it or he doesn't. No matter what happens, neither person needs to be viewed as an ashhole.

I wish I had realized that back in '98. There's no need to get emotional about business.

Thanks all, for your comments. This is the first time in 10 years I've had a decent chance to talk about this with my peers.