Jordan Neely killing/Daniel Penny charges

[Azrael]

Maybe because I had no idea how you came to "How good is the "decision making" of a drug-addled schizophrenic?" from what I posted.

Of course by the time he was very far gone, he wasn't capable of making good decisions.

That piece was about how he got to there. I was commenting on how he got there. ... it's never as simple as, "He was a helpless victim with no hand in his own life.

He wasn't born a drug-addled schizophrenic. I quoted that graph from the piece which says nobody would have called him severely mentally ill when he was young, but his friend thinks he went downhill after he started messing around with K2.

Who is posting, or has posted, that?

You mentioned very specifically, his "choice" to leave Harbor House.

My question, when he was given the "Alternative to Incarceration" treatment and sentenced to Harbor House with a warning to see it through and he said and did all the right things in court, but then he skipped out after less than 2 weeks. ... there is a long description of what he really needed and didn't get that seemed to absolve him. ... when what I saw as a choice he made. Was he ever responsible for anything he did, and the consequences of his own decisions?

He was far gone by then.

Which leads to the question: How good is the "decision making" of a drug-addled schizophrenic?

 

[The Big Ragu]

Who is posting, or has posted, that?

You mentioned very specifically, his "choice" to leave Harbor House.



He was far gone by then.

Which leads to the question: How good is the "decision making" of a drug-addled schizophrenic?

After Neely was sworn in, Biben faced him.
Did he understand that he was pleading guilty to a clash-D felony?
"Yes," Neely said.
"Are you pleading guilty because you are, in fact, guilty?"
"Yes."
Biben set forth the terms of the agreement, then asked Neely if he had left Rikers with his belongings. Neely said he didn't have any. He was free to go. "You are going to be escorted" to the program, the judge told him. "But you actually have to go, physically and mentally, make it to the program, and commit to being in the program. Do you understand what I'm saying?"
"Yes, I do," Neely said.
"This is very important," Biben said. "Because if you leave the program, if you are discharged from the program, if you are out of touch with us, we will not be able to help you, and I'll have to issue a bench warrant for your arrest. Understood?"
"Yes," Neely said.

 

[Azrael]

After Neely was sworn in, Biben faced him.
Did he understand that he was pleading guilty to a clash-D felony?
"Yes," Neely said.
"Are you pleading guilty because you are, in fact, guilty?"
"Yes."
Biben set forth the terms of the agreement, then asked Neely if he had left Rikers with his belongings. Neely said he didn't have any. He was free to go. "You are going to be escorted" to the program, the judge told him. "But you actually have to go, physically and mentally, make it to the program, and commit to being in the program. Do you understand what I'm saying?"
"Yes, I do," Neely said.
"This is very important," Biben said. "Because if you leave the program, if you are discharged from the program, if you are out of touch with us, we will not be able to help you, and I'll have to issue a bench warrant for your arrest. Understood?"
"Yes," Neely said.

Having been in Riker's for 15 months, he was pretty clearly on his psych meds then.

For most of his 15-month stay at Rikers, Neely lived in a "mental-observation unit" intended to provide psychiatric care to detainees too vulnerable to live in the general population but not ill enough to need 24-hour oversight. The units house about 30 men, all with a designation of M (mental illness) or SMI (severe mental illness). Neely was SMI. He lived in a large, open dormitory-style room with dozens of beds.

A team of health-care providers visited the unit every day, checking in with each man for five minutes or so, doing scheduled weekly one-on-one therapy, and sometimes offering art therapy. A few times a day, a pharmacy technician would stand at a window and call "meds," and the inmates would line up to receive their prescription drugs.

Neely was beloved by the health-care staff at Rikers. He was quiet and could frequently be found lying on his bed. In an environment that breeds conflict, paranoia, defensiveness, and violence, Neely was gentle, earnest, and stable. He smiled and said "Good morning," according to mental-health-care workers on his floor. K2 is everywhere in Rikers, but Neely was not a habitual user, nor did he get into fights. He took his prescription medication.

Do you think he went off them at Harbor House?

 

[The Big Ragu]

I have no idea.

I just know it said he bolted in less than 2 weeks.

I'll go back to his rap sheet when he was younger and according to his friend at least, nobody would have thought he was severely mentally ill. ... turnstile jumping, littering, things like those over and over again.

Maybe he had a pattern from an early age of just doing what he wanted, when he wanted, with no regard for laws and rules.

If that was how he went through life -- and there is probably plenty of evidence of that -- it might just be that he knew how to play the game in the court room to avoid going to prison. But then when he got to the residential program, he decided he didn't like it and with no bars, he left. A conscious choice.

I don't know the circumstances around it. Without knowing, I just don't automatically default to every bad thing he ever did having been him being a helpless victim with no control over his own choices. If anything, he seemed to know exactly what he had to say and do to get the residential treatment program rather than a state prison.

 

[Slacker]

Neely didn't go off the rails when he got on K2.
He went off the rails when his mother was murdered.

That is why his story is a tragedy. He was on a decent path until then.

 

[Azrael]

Without knowing, I just don't automatically default to every bad thing he ever did having been him being a helpless victim with no control over his own choices.

I don't think anyone is saying this.

 

[The Big Ragu]

I don't think anyone is saying this.

Of course they are. I was looking at Twitter yesterday to see people's reactions to the profile.

85 percent: Heartbreaking! He was a sweet, gentle, unhoused victim who was just trying to moonwalk his way through all the systemic such and suches that were responsible for killing him.
The rest: He was an unhinged criminal maniac who rode the subway terrorizing innocent tax payers. He should have been in prison!

Miller didn't write it as cartoonishly as the first one of those, but it was certainly her bias. She put a lot of work into that profile. ... but extensively quoted only people who loved him and didn't have an unbiased view of him.

The profile did a very good job of documenting the tough life he had -- the facts. But in terms of questions about how he got to the day he died, people who have no clue if he was really a good guy or a bad guy or just how his own decisions played a role in how things evolved for him, are straining to frame him the way they want him to have been, not how he necessarily actually was.

 

[Azrael]

Of course they are. I was looking at Twitter yesterday to see people's reactions to the profile.

85 percent: Heartbreaking! He was a sweet, gentle, unhoused victim who was just trying to moonwalk his way through all the systemic such and suches that were responsible for killing him.
The rest: He was an unhinged criminal maniac who rode the subway terrorizing innocent tax payers. He should have been in prison!

Miller didn't write it as cartoonishly as the first one of those, but it was certainly her bias. She put a lot of work into that profile. ... but extensively quoted only people who loved him and didn't have an unbiased view of him.

The profile did a very good job of documenting the tough life he had -- the facts. But in terms of questions about how he got to the day he died, people who have no clue if he was really a good guy or a bad guy or just how his own decisions played a role in how things evolved for him, are straining to frame him the way they want him to have been, not how he necessarily actually was.

I don't think anyone is saying this here.

 

[The Big Ragu]

 

[Batman]

More vigilante fun on the subway today.

The incident started when the 32-year-old man got on the train at Nostrand Avenue and was allegedly approached by the 36-year-old who was acting "aggressive and provocative," Kemper said.
An argument broke out between the men and it got physical, Kemper said.
At one point the 36-year-old brandished a "knife or sharp object," but then put the object down, according to Kemper.
The physical fight ensued again and the 36-year-old then removed a gun from his coat and approached the other man "in a menacing way," Kemper said.
The 32-year-old allegedly took the gun away from the 36-year-old after they continued fighting and then fired multiple shots as the train was pulling into the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station, Kemper said.

 

[Azrael]

Good thing we had all those extra troopers and cops and Guardsmen in the subway.

Which one is the Good Samaritan in this scenario?

Man Is Critically Wounded in a Shooting on a Subway Train in Brooklyn

 

[Azrael]

Trial date set.

October.

Judge Sets Trial For Marine Who Fatally Choked Jordan Neely On NYC Subway